Question:

For months radical feminists have been silent on the plight of Iraqi women. Instead this hypocritical bunch has condemned the war in Iraq and its subsequent liberation of women simply because the war is supported by conservatives.

Then you’re not talking to the right feminists. Around here many have been front and center on the issue. LIBERAL Demon-KKK-Rat John KKKerry opposes the death penalty, he supports rights for dirty muslim terrorists and criminals, and he promises to appoint LIBERAL judges to the U.S. Supreme Court.

Here is a news flash for you:  some countries won’t turn over wanted people to the US because we have the death penalty. So the choice is do we let them go free or do we go for life in prison?  Personally I would prefer life rather than letting them go free.   —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 100,000 Newsgroups – 19 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Feminists Silent on Freedom for Iraqi Women by Lisa De Pasquale http://www.cblpolicyinstitute.org/silenceoniraqiwomen.htm The transfer of sovereignty to the Iraqi government marks a new day for Iraqi women. Thanks to the courageous action taken by the Bush administration and its allies, Iraqi women have renewed freedom. The administration has insisted that women receive educational and small business opportunities, as well as active participation in government. For months radical feminists have been silent on the plight of Iraqi women. Instead this hypocritical bunch has condemned the war in Iraq and its subsequent liberation of women simply because the war is supported by conservatives. In March feminists gathered in front of the White House to protest military action against Saddam Hussein. The protest was called "Code Pink: Women’s Pre-Emptive Strike for Peace." On the other side of the world, Iraqi women were being denied the most basic (Indian)n lived in fear knowing that Iraqi law freely allowed male relatives to murder them in the name of honor. In Iraqi prisons, women were raped and tortured for being related to Iraqi opposition activists. Videotapes of the acts were sent to the families. Despite obvious human rights violations and limits on freedom, feminists, led by the National Organization for Women, ignored Saddam Hussein’s reprehensible treatment of women. Under the Saddam Hussein regime Iraqi women were not allowed to work outside the home. Feminists, on the other hand, talked about America’s "tyrants" and the threat of "tyranny in our homes, our workplaces and our schools." Radical feminists witnessed a legitimate case of tyranny and violence against women in Iraq, but they remained steadfastly against policies and actions taken by America and the Bush administration that helped these women. NOW President Kim Gandy stated, "The real terrorism is the Bush administration’s disregard for international law and destruction of civil liberties at home. This has become an issue of one dictator versus another." Feminists are more comfortable allowing Iraqi women to endure torture than supporting the Bush Administration. For example, a report by Amnesty International documented the beheading of 50 young women in Baghdad. The report also said, "The heads of these women were hung on the doors of their houses for a few days." Saddam’s son Uday led the group of men who beheaded the women and terrorized their families. The US State Department reports that human rights organizations receive continuous testimony on the psychological trauma women have suffered after being tortured and raped by Iraqi military personnel. Despite this overwhelming evidence, feminists in the US praised Iraq and cited a suspicious United Nations report that said Iraq "scored highest in women’s empowerment." Before the capture of Saddam, NOW stated in a press release posted on their website that Iraqi women "currently enjoy more rights and freedoms than women in other Gulf nations, such as Saudi Arabia." At an International Alliance for Justice press conference in 2002, Safia al-Souhail, an Iraqi woman whose father was murdered for opposing Saddam, said, "We are here begging the support of the free world to liberate us from the nightmare we have been living in for the past three decades." Al-Souhail also said, "Disarmament alone will not end our suffering. This regime should be indicted for its crimes against humanity." NOW and their cohorts were deaf to these women’s pleas and still condemn the war in Iraq. Feminists invent problems in the US and ignore the real problems faced by women around the world. NOW accuses President Bush of "reversing women’s rights here and abroad." Feminist Majority leader Eleanor Smeal odiously said that the Bush Administration "needs to construct a foreign policy as if women mattered." The deceptively titled March for Women’s Lives in April brought thousands of feminists and leftist supporters to Washington, DC. Rather than march against the atrocities and violence against women in Iraq and other countries around the world, feminists waved coat hangers and demanded taxpayer-funded abortions. Cybill Shepherd held a sign that said, "Too bad John Ashcroft’s mother didn’t believe in abortion." Amid "Fire Bush," "Tarts for Choice" and other placards feminist icon Gloria Steinem told the crowd, "This government is the greatest danger on earth!" Echoing the hateful and hysterical rhetoric, Senator Hillary Clinton, with no apparent sense of irony regarding the previous administration, said she was there to criticize President Bush for "not upholding laws against sexual harassment and discrimination." These radical feminists’ stance on military action in Iraq and the global war on terrorism illustrate how they have consistently fallen short of their purported mission to "eliminate sexism and eliminate all oppression." Their motives are clearly political and not based on advancing the rights of women around the world. When faced with a war that liberated the Iraqi people, a majority of whom are women, feminists would much rather turn a blind eye to the horrors of Saddam than support America and the Bush Administration. N.O.W.: Ladies! Open your arms + legs to Kobe! N.O.W.’s Man of the Year: Kobe Bryant Ladies and Lesbians: I am pleased to present the National Organization for Wymyn’s Man of the Year Award. And the envelope please … N.O.W.’s Man of the Year Award for 2004 goes to … [Wild Wymyn Applause] Kobe Bryant!!! [Wild Wymyn Applause] For his ceaseless and undying efforts at giving the Wymyn of Colorado and elsewhere what they really, really, really want!!! [Wild Wymyn Applause] Go Kobe! Go Kobe! Go Kobe! [Wild Wymyn Applause] Kobe symbolizes our great LIBERAL legal system where the Colorado Court LEAKS information about rape victims not once, not twice, but THREE [3] times!!! [Wild Wymyn Applause] Let’s give it up for Kobe: our ideal MAN HUNK!!! [Wild Wymyn Applause] Kobe is such a gracious, considerate, and loyal MAN HUNK who gave his cheated wife a 12-carat DIAMOND ring not once, not twice, but THREE [3] times!!! [Wild Wymyn Applause] Ladies and Lesbians, let’s open our arms and legs for Kobe!!! [Wild Wymyn Applause] Ladies and Lesbians, I must confess it was a difficult choice this year, but I would like to congratulate this year’s First Runner-up — and no, it’s not Gloria Allred — [Wild Wymyn Applause] — for her focus on Michael Jackson — our congratulations go to First Runner-up Pamela Macke!!! [Wild Wymyn Applause] Pamela Macke proves once again that a wymyn is MAN enough and has the balls and ethics to take on our great LIBERAL legal system!!! You go, girl!!! [Wild Wymyn Applause] X O X O X LIBERAL Lessons from Kobe Bryant + Scott Peterson Cases Soccer Moms and other Women! Do you want LIBERAL judges who rule against rape victims? Do you want LIBERAL judges who free murderers? Do you want LIBERAL feminazis who want to kill you and your baby in your pregnancy? Did Lacey Peterson have a "choice"? Do soccer moms want LIBERAL judges + Kobe Bryant + O.J.? WOMEN of the world unite! LIBERAL Demon-KKK-Rat John KKKerry opposes the death penalty, he supports rights for dirty muslim terrorists and criminals, and he promises to appoint LIBERAL judges to the U.S. Supreme Court. By contrast, President George W. Bush and the Party of Lincoln support the death penalty and support TOUGH JUDGES who protect women’s rights to be free from rape, murder, assault, battery, and terrorism. Please protect our sisters, daughters and mothers: vote Bush/Cheney!

Response:

Question:

"The fact is that the GOP is still the only place where a klansman can feel at home." —David Duke, 2002

Response:

Chelsea Clinton: Why My Mom + Dad Are Great Role Models N.O.W.: Ladies! Open your arms + legs to Kobe! N.O.W.’s Man of the Year: Kobe Bryant Ladies and Lesbians: I am pleased to present the National Organization for Wymyn’s Man of the Year Award. And the envelope please … N.O.W.’s Man of the Year Award for 2004 goes to … [Wild Wymyn Applause] Kobe Bryant!!! [Wild Wymyn Applause] For his ceaseless and undying efforts at giving the Wymyn of Colorado and elsewhere what they really, really, really want!!! [Wild Wymyn Applause] Go Kobe! Go Kobe! Go Kobe! [Wild Wymyn Applause] Kobe symbolizes our great LIBERAL legal system where the Colorado Court LEAKS information about rape victims not once, not twice, but THREE [3] times!!! [Wild Wymyn Applause] Let’s give it up for Kobe: our ideal MAN HUNK!!! [Wild Wymyn Applause] Kobe is such a gracious, considerate, and loyal MAN HUNK who gave his cheated wife a 12-carat DIAMOND ring not once, not twice, but THREE [3] times!!! [Wild Wymyn Applause] Ladies and Lesbians, let’s open our arms and legs for Kobe!!! [Wild Wymyn Applause] Ladies and Lesbians, I must confess it was a difficult choice this year, but I would like to congratulate this year’s First Runner-up — and no, it’s not Gloria Allred — [Wild Wymyn Applause] — for her focus on Michael Jackson — our congratulations goes to First Runner-up Pamela Macke!!! [Wild Wymyn Applause] Pamela Macke proves once again that a wymyn is MAN enough and has the balls and ethics to take on our great LIBERAL legal system!!! [Wild Wymyn Applause] X O X O X Don’t bother reporting rape: LIBERAL judges don’t care LIBERAL Lessons from Kobe Bryant + Scott Peterson Cases Soccer Moms and other Women! Do you want LIBERAL judges who rule against rape victims? Do you want LIBERAL judges who free murderers? Do you want LIBERAL feminazis who want to kill you and your baby in your pregnancy? Did Lacey Peterson have a "choice"? Hey, LIBERAL Feminazis! Billary KKKlinton, Kobe Bryant, or O.J.? Who’s your favorite HERO? Why Hillary Clinton is an inspiration for all women Hillary stands by her girly-man who is a: + dis-barred lawyer + serial adulterer + serial perjurer and liar + dirty old bastard who preys upon females the same age as his daughter The Truth about islam http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/ Girl, 16, hanged in public in Iran http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=80 Fri. 20 Aug 2004 On Sunday, August 15, a 16-year-old girl in the town of Neka, northern Iran, was executed. Ateqeh Sahaleh was hanged in public on Simetry Street off Rah Ahan Street at the city center. The sentence was issued by the head of Neka’s Justice Department and subsequently upheld by the mullahs’ Supreme Court and carried out with the approval of Judiciary Chief Mahmoud Shahroudi. In her summary trial, the teenage victim did not have any lawyer and efforts by her family to recruit a lawyer was to no avail. Ateqeh personally defended herself. She told the religious judge, Haji Rezaii, that he should punish the main perpetrators of moral corruption not the victims. The judge personally pursued Ateqeh’s death sentence, beyond all normal procedures and finally gained the approval of the Supreme Court. After her execution Rezai said her punishment was not execution but he had her executed for her "sharp tongue."

Response:

Question:

N.O.W.: Ladies! Open your arms + legs to Kobe! Don’t bother reporting rape: LIBERAL judges don’t care N.O.W.’s Man of the Year: Kobe Bryant Ladies and Lesbians: I am pleased to present the National Organization for Wymyn’s Man of the Year Award. And the envelope please … N.O.W.’s Man of the Year Award for 2004 goes to … [Wild Wymyn Applause] Kobe Bryant!!! [Wild Wymyn Applause] For his ceaseless and undying efforts at giving the Wymyn of Colorado and elsewhere what they really, really, really want!!! [Wild Wymyn Applause] Go Kobe! Go Kobe! Go Kobe! [Wild Wymyn Applause] Kobe symbolizes our great LIBERAL legal system where the Colorado Court LEAKS information about rape victims not once, not twice, but THREE [3] times!!! [Wild Wymyn Applause] Let’s give it up for Kobe: our ideal MAN HUNK!!! [Wild Wymyn Applause] Kobe is such a gracious, considerate, and loyal MAN HUNK who gave his cheated wife a 12-carat DIAMOND ring not once, not twice, but THREE [3] times!!! [Wild Wymyn Applause] Ladies and Lesbians, let’s open our arms and legs for Kobe!!! [Wild Wymyn Applause] Ladies and Lesbians, I must confess it was a difficult choice this year, but I would like to congratulate this year’s First Runner-up — and no, it’s not Gloria Allred — [Wild Wymyn Applause] — for her focus on Michael Jackson — our congratulations goes to First Runner-up Pamela Macke!!! [Wild Wymyn Applause] Pamela Macke proves once again that a wymyn is MAN enough and has the balls and ethics to take on our great LIBERAL legal system!!! [Wild Wymyn Applause] X O X O X LIBERAL Lessons from Kobe Bryant + Scott Peterson Cases Soccer Moms and other Women! Do you want LIBERAL judges who rule against rape victims? Do you want LIBERAL judges who free murderers? Do you want LIBERAL feminazis who want to kill you and your baby in your pregnancy? Did Lacey Peterson have a "choice"? Do soccer moms want LIBERAL judges + Kobe Bryant + O.J.? WOMEN of the world unite! LIBERAL Demon-KKK-Rat John KKKerry opposes the death penalty, he supports rights for dirty muslim terrorists and criminals, and he promises to appoint LIBERAL judges to the U.S. Supreme Court. By contrast, President George W. Bush and the Party of Lincoln support the death penalty and support TOUGH JUDGES who protect women’s rights to be free from rape, murder, assault, battery, and terrorism. Please protect our sisters, daughters and mothers: vote Bush/Cheney! Why Hillary Clinton is an inspiration for all women Hillary stands by her girly-man who is a: + dis-barred lawyer + serial adulterer + serial perjurer and liar + dirty old bastard who preys upon females the same age as his daughter The Truth about islam http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/ Feminists Silent on Freedom for Iraqi Women by Lisa De Pasquale http://www.cblpolicyinstitute.org/silenceoniraqiwomen.htm The transfer of sovereignty to the Iraqi government marks a new day for Iraqi women. Thanks to the courageous action taken by the Bush administration and its allies, Iraqi women have renewed freedom. The administration has insisted that women receive educational and small business opportunities, as well as active participation in government. For months radical feminists have been silent on the plight of Iraqi women. Instead this hypocritical bunch has condemned the war in Iraq and its subsequent liberation of women simply because the war is supported by conservatives. In March feminists gathered in front of the White House to protest military action against Saddam Hussein. The protest was called "Code Pink: Women’s Pre-Emptive Strike for Peace." On the other side of the world, Iraqi women were being denied the most basic (Indian)n lived in fear knowing that Iraqi law freely allowed male relatives to murder them in the name of honor. In Iraqi prisons, women were raped and tortured for being related to Iraqi opposition activists. Videotapes of the acts were sent to the families. Despite obvious human rights violations and limits on freedom, feminists, led by the National Organization for Women, ignored Saddam Hussein’s reprehensible treatment of women. Under the Saddam Hussein regime Iraqi women were not allowed to work outside the home. Feminists, on the other hand, talked about America’s "tyrants" and the threat of "tyranny in our homes, our workplaces and our schools." Radical feminists witnessed a legitimate case of tyranny and violence against women in Iraq, but they remained steadfastly against policies and actions taken by America and the Bush administration that helped these women. NOW President Kim Gandy stated, "The real terrorism is the Bush administration’s disregard for international law and destruction of civil liberties at home. This has become an issue of one dictator versus another." Feminists are more comfortable allowing Iraqi women to endure torture than supporting the Bush Administration. For example, a report by Amnesty International documented the beheading of 50 young women in Baghdad. The report also said, "The heads of these women were hung on the doors of their houses for a few days." Saddam’s son Uday led the group of men who beheaded the women and terrorized their families. The US State Department reports that human rights organizations receive continuous testimony on the psychological trauma women have suffered after being tortured and raped by Iraqi military personnel. Despite this overwhelming evidence, feminists in the US praised Iraq and cited a suspicious United Nations report that said Iraq "scored highest in women’s empowerment." Before the capture of Saddam, NOW stated in a press release posted on their website that Iraqi women "currently enjoy more rights and freedoms than women in other Gulf nations, such as Saudi Arabia." At an International Alliance for Justice press conference in 2002, Safia al-Souhail, an Iraqi woman whose father was murdered for opposing Saddam, said, "We are here begging the support of the free world to liberate us from the nightmare we have been living in for the past three decades." Al-Souhail also said, "Disarmament alone will not end our suffering. This regime should be indicted for its crimes against humanity." NOW and their cohorts were deaf to these women’s pleas and still condemn the war in Iraq. Feminists invent problems in the US and ignore the real problems faced by women around the world. NOW accuses President Bush of "reversing women’s rights here and abroad." Feminist Majority leader Eleanor Smeal odiously said that the Bush Administration "needs to construct a foreign policy as if women mattered." The deceptively titled March for Women’s Lives in April brought thousands of feminists and leftist supporters to Washington, DC. Rather than march against the atrocities and violence against women in Iraq and other countries around the world, feminists waved coat hangers and demanded taxpayer-funded abortions. Cybill Shepherd held a sign that said, "Too bad John Ashcroft’s mother didn’t believe in abortion." Amid "Fire Bush," "Tarts for Choice" and other placards feminist icon Gloria Steinem told the crowd, "This government is the greatest danger on earth!" Echoing the hateful and hysterical rhetoric, Senator Hillary Clinton, with no apparent sense of irony regarding the previous administration, said she was there to criticize President Bush for "not upholding laws against sexual harassment and discrimination." These radical feminists’ stance on military action in Iraq and the global war on terrorism illustrate how they have consistently fallen short of their purported mission to "eliminate sexism and eliminate all oppression." Their motives are clearly political and not based on advancing the rights of women around the world. When faced with a war that liberated the Iraqi people, a majority of whom are women, feminists would much rather turn a blind eye to the horrors of Saddam than support America and the Bush Administration.

Response:

"The fact is that the GOP is still the only place where a klansman can feel at home." —David Duke, 2002

Response:

Question:

Make this go away!   Who next?  Barbara Stresisand?

Liz Taylor is going to adopt children with Micheal Jackson.  ROR!!!!!!! Jeannette, Bmom The more that you read, the more things you will know. The more that you learn, the more places you’ll go. Dr. Seuss, I Can Read With My Eyes Shut

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – From another ng. What is she thinking??? Friday November 23 01:47 AM EST LIZA TO ‘RING’ IN A FOURTH HUSBAND By RICHARD JOHNSON and JOHN LEHMANN Diva Liza Minnelli is planning to marry again – and she’s showing off a 3.5-carat diamond ring as dazzling as her new romance. Minnelli, 55, is said to be as "excited as a schoolgirl" after falling head over heels for showman David Gest. <snip "I’m so happy, darling," Liza-with-a-Zing purred while proudly holding up her new diamond. For Minnelli, who has lost 30 pounds since undergoing hip and back surgery in March, the love union will be her fourth marriage. Gest is a big-time producer who orchestrated Michael Jackson’s tribute gig at Madison Square Garden in September. <snip During her 90-minute visit to the salon, at the Bergdorf Goodman store, Minnelli also confided that she wanted to adopt four children with Gest. <snip Susan

Make this go away!   Who next?  Barbara Stresisand? Marley – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

From another ng. What is she thinking??? Friday November 23 01:47 AM EST LIZA TO ‘RING’ IN A FOURTH HUSBAND By RICHARD JOHNSON and JOHN LEHMANN Diva Liza Minnelli is planning to marry again – and she’s showing off a 3.5-carat diamond ring as dazzling as her new romance. Minnelli, 55, is said to be as "excited as a schoolgirl" after falling head over heels for showman David Gest. <snip "I’m so happy, darling," Liza-with-a-Zing purred while proudly holding up her new diamond. For Minnelli, who has lost 30 pounds since undergoing hip and back surgery in March, the love union will be her fourth marriage. Gest is a big-time producer who orchestrated Michael Jackson’s tribute gig at Madison Square Garden in September. <snip During her 90-minute visit to the salon, at the Bergdorf Goodman store, Minnelli also confided that she wanted to adopt four children with Gest. <snip Susan

Response:

From another ng. What is she thinking???

She wants to be a grandma, and this is the quickest way to do it??? <snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Friday November 23 01:47 AM EST LIZA TO ‘RING’ IN A FOURTH HUSBAND By RICHARD JOHNSON and JOHN LEHMANN Diva Liza Minnelli is planning to marry again – and she’s showing off a 3.5-carat diamond ring as dazzling as her new romance. Minnelli, 55, is said to be as "excited as a schoolgirl" after falling head over heels for showman David Gest. <snip "I’m so happy, darling," Liza-with-a-Zing purred while proudly holding up her new diamond. For Minnelli, who has lost 30 pounds since undergoing hip and back surgery in March, the love union will be her fourth marriage. Gest is a big-time producer who orchestrated Michael Jackson’s tribute gig at Madison Square Garden in September. <snip During her 90-minute visit to the salon, at the Bergdorf Goodman store, Minnelli also confided that she wanted to adopt four children with Gest. <snip Susan

Response:

Question:

Yeah…sometimes I wonder if the only people who post here are WASP.

I’m not! Ron Ng Knows!

Response:

ps. I’m a firm believer in that Showers should only be held for First Weddings. Period!!! I would tend to agree here, although one must take into account the ’situation’ that the divorcee is in.. ie. if they ended up with possessions, or nothing…  it’s a good question to ponder though..

Oh my goodness. I think I found a sympatico one in the bunch. Yes, there are those nasty rasty divorces, of which some I’ve been privy to, where one has been stripped of belongings, but again, I don’t think a shower is appropriate…at least not a household, community property type one. LOL In these cases…wedding gifts are IT. But if you have a different RL perspective, I’m more than willing to adjust my thinking. Ellen

Response:

Clair was trying to state the exact same thing about a week ago before exploding at everyone because of the backlash she received and taking off.  Australian and New Zealand weddings and showers are seemingly more laid back about a lot of issues, although a certain amount of ethics is still present.

Only crass and VULGAR Australians and New Zealanders are so laidback that they expect their guests to pay for the wedding right down to showing up with the refreshments. Ron Ng Knows!

Response:

Clair was trying to state the exact same thing about a week ago before exploding at everyone because of the backlash she received and taking off.  Australian and New Zealand weddings and showers are seemingly more laid back about a lot of issues, although a certain amount of ethics is still present. Only crass and VULGAR Australians and New Zealanders are so laidback that they expect their guests to pay for the wedding right down to showing up with the refreshments. Ron Ng Knows!

You know…this is driving me bonkers. I used to have a very old cookbook that had Pioneer history and recipes in it. One of those Little House on the Prarie type books. And in it was a section that spoke of weddings and the various customs of the day. Anyway, to make a long story short, in the late 1800’s it wasn’t that uncommon right here in Middle America for the townspeople to bring their best cured hams, pickled vegies, pies, and brewed cider to the wedding celebration of one of their own. The same musicians that entertained in the community played at each wedding for a few dollars and a jug of whatever…lol. In fact, as I recall, it was tradition for the women to bring layers of cake, to be assembled on site, with applesauce in between, to create the Wedding Cake. Sure, it may not be acceptable practice here in the US for this to occur today, but I don’t think it’s because people don’t want to, but more that we’ve become accustomed to blatant show of position and wealth, which we VULGAR USAians all too often take for granted. But just because social norm says it’s so here in the US, doesn’t mean that other cultures on the globe don’t hold strong to this sort of tradition and to think otherwise is VULGAR. Ellen

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I agree as well. However let me please say that there ARE situations where this isn’t as BIG a deal as people seem to think. I cite one example where my cousin was getting married to her church’s youth minister and they were going to be moving away for two years while he served as a counselor at a seminary. They were going to live in a furnished apartment on campus and while they would be returning back to our hometown afterwards, they simply did not have the ability to house/store household gifts and such. As tradition in our family would dictate, us cousins [some 15 of us] threw a personal shower for the Bride – where gorgeous lingerie was not only given with abandon….we made her model at least one "outfit". BUT since they were from a huge congregation with lots of people who loved them, there was a HUGE shower for the two of them, which was more of a great party in their church gym, and we had a money tree where people hung envelopes with checks enclosed, and a banker in the Church invested the money for them. When they returned after two years they had enough to put a down payment on a house. This was a gifting of love and support, not THEIR idea but the idea of people who loved them. I would like to add that they also got amazingly wonderful wedding gifts which were stored for them at no cost by the church trustees, and when they came home they had all the fixins to set up their home and celebrate the birth of their first child.

Actually this is a good point Ellen.. I would certainly understand this if people were moving away.  . And here is a situation I simply do not understand. I have NEVER seen anyone open cards with enclosed gift certificates hold them up to everyone and say, "Oh [insert name here], thank you for this $10. gift certificate from Walmart" OR "Oh [insert name here], this $1000. gift certificate from Tiffany’s is just what I wanted."  Usually a smile directed at the giftor is extended, a hug exchanged and none of the guests are any wiser, and in my case I wouldn’t want to know what the gift was which I think is probably pretty much the case for most.

The wedding of 350+ people that I referred to also used this method of envelopes to put money in if you wished Besides, Cash [or gift certificates] comes in One Size Fits All. Aren’t I VULGAR! Tee hee….. Ellen ps. I’m a firm believer in that Showers should only be held for First Weddings. Period!!!

I would tend to agree here, although one must take into account the ’situation’ that the divorcee is in.. ie. if they ended up with possessions, or nothing…  it’s a good question to ponder though..

Response:

Ellen, I’m glad people are starting to see there are traditional differences between cultures and religions.  Clair was trying to state the exact same thing about a week ago before exploding at everyone because of the backlash she received and taking off.  Australian and New Zealand weddings and showers are seemingly more laid back about a lot of issues, although a certain amount of ethics is still present.

Yeah…sometimes I wonder if the only people who post here are WASP. I certainly also agree that people should not decide to add something to a wedding or shower that they wish to have money only instead of gifts.  

I agree as well. However let me please say that there ARE situations where this isn’t as BIG a deal as people seem to think. I cite one example where my cousin was getting married to her church’s youth minister and they were going to be moving away for two years while he served as a counselor at a seminary. They were going to live in a furnished apartment on campus and while they would be returning back to our hometown afterwards, they simply did not have the ability to house/store household gifts and such. As tradition in our family would dictate, us cousins [some 15 of us] threw a personal shower for the Bride – where gorgeous lingerie was not only given with abandon….we made her model at least one "outfit". BUT since they were from a huge congregation with lots of people who loved them, there was a HUGE shower for the two of them, which was more of a great party in their church gym, and we had a money tree where people hung envelopes with checks enclosed, and a banker in the Church invested the money for them. When they returned after two years they had enough to put a down payment on a house. This was a gifting of love and support, not THEIR idea but the idea of people who loved them. I would like to add that they also got amazingly wonderful wedding gifts which were stored for them at no cost by the church trustees, and when they came home they had all the fixins to set up their home and celebrate the birth of their first child. I have other examples where such showers CAN be appropriate but it’s really a consideration of the circle of friends who are involved in putting on the shower and less to do with the couple holding their hands out saying gimme gimme. If culturally this is acceptable then it’s fine.  I was a guest at a Greek/Italian wedding of 350+ people, and the bride and groom had money either pinned on them or wrapped around them..  This was fine with everyone, as this is a cultural tradition, and those who weren’t aware of this tradition were told but weren’t expected to be involved, we just produced gifts…

And that’s fine too. Someone wishing to have just money given to them ‘out of the blue’, in most cases, is not acceptable.

I completely agree. For reasons like T indicated: if there is an opening of the gift, then some people will feel bad if they did not match the same amount of others.. etc etc…

And here is a situation I simply do not understand. I have NEVER seen anyone open cards with enclosed gift certificates hold them up to everyone and say, "Oh [insert name here], thank you for this $10. gift certificate from Walmart" OR "Oh [insert name here], this $1000. gift certificate from Tiffany’s is just what I wanted."  Usually a smile directed at the giftor is extended, a hug exchanged and none of the guests are any wiser, and in my case I wouldn’t want to know what the gift was which I think is probably pretty much the case for most. I’ve been to MANY showers where the gifts alone told the tale, far more blatantly than a gift certificate. Lingerie showers are a good example. Don’t you think that the person who gave the package of Haines for Her panties in a larger size than the bride wears might feel a little chagrined when the Bride opens an imported white lace pegnoir set? These showerings are about gifting not only gifts, but love, support and celebration of a rite of passage and who is going to say that love can’t come in a package labeled Tiffany’s or US Currency? I’ve never been to a shower that I didn’t truly care about the person, whether they were my own family member or close personal friend, or marrying a family member or close personal friend, so that might be the reason why I feel so strongly that it’s okay to do whatever will make them happy. Besides, Cash [or gift certificates] comes in One Size Fits All. Aren’t I VULGAR! Tee hee….. Ellen ps. I’m a firm believer in that Showers should only be held for First Weddings. Period!!!

Response:

I’m glad people are starting to see there are traditional differences between cultures and religions.  Clair was trying to state the exact same thing about a week ago before exploding at everyone because of the backlash she received and taking off.  Australian and New Zealand weddings and showers are seemingly more laid back about a lot of issues, although a certain amount of ethics is still present.

I think, though, that some of what she talked about was somewhere between "irregular" and "very insular" as far as some suggestions, but then she would paint it with a huge "Oh, that’s what we do here" brush.  Having *known* a few aussies and kiwis, I can safely say that there do exist some that simply don’t agree with her suggestions, which means that hey, while she was speaking for her immediate circle possibly, she was not speaking for the whole continent or society. Again, if a social event includes people of different regions, cultures or backgrounds, it’s best to go with the most conservative translation.  If you’re hosting a party, the default is to provide adequate food and beverage. If you’re celebrating, the default is to not mourn those who are gone.  If it’s an event that might include gifts, graciously and quickly thank anyone giving you a gift.

Response:

Thank you. You have affirmed what I have been trying to determine. IF something is comfortable within particular groups than it’s acceptable.

With the caveat that if it’s comfortable within a group, you don’t need to ask about it on Usenet. :^) It would appear that this group freely tosses blanket rules around, so I assumed it was to mean that these traditions are wrong, however well accepted they might be.

Again, though, if you’re inviting people who wouldn’t be used to it, either warn them or consider not doing it now that it’s not all "family" or the same culture….   I’m one of those types that loves ethnic and unusual wedding traditions, and welcome the opportunity to be "shocked" by new customs and ideas.

As one of the few Americans at a Mexican wedding, it was really cool and neat and fun, but if the same event happened at an American wedding in America, it would probably be kind of weird or even tacky… They had a money shirt — which worked out well, since I was kind of a weird add-on-last-minute-guest, and many of the Americans didn’t know any of the Catholic stuff, so I was kind of helping some of them along :^)  OTOH, the families bridged cultures in that there was plenty of good food, beverages, music, and REALLY nice people. It was overwhelmingly a great time.

Response:

Ellen, I’m glad people are starting to see there are traditional differences between cultures and religions.  Clair was trying to state the exact same thing about a week ago before exploding at everyone because of the backlash she received and taking off.  Australian and New Zealand weddings and showers are seemingly more laid back about a lot of issues, although a certain amount of ethics is still present. I certainly also agree that people should not decide to add something to a wedding or shower that they wish to have money only instead of gifts.  If culturally this is acceptable then it’s fine.  I was a guest at a Greek/Italian wedding of 350+ people, and the bride and groom had money either pinned on them or wrapped around them..  This was fine with everyone, as this is a cultural tradition, and those who weren’t aware of this tradition were told but weren’t expected to be involved, we just produced gifts… Someone wishing to have just money given to them ‘out of the blue’, in most cases, is not acceptable. For reasons like T indicated: if there is an opening of the gift, then some people will feel bad if they did not match the same amount of others.. etc etc… Cheers Ness

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And that’s great. Traditions are a good thing. Doing what your family has come to expect is very comfortable and nice and acceptable.  What isn’t acceptable, though, is yanking a tradition into your celebration because you think it’s a great money maker or quaint: it can be very offensive to "adopt" a profound and serious tradition for the sake of pretty pictures (which is why many churches don’t make themselves available to just everyone), and it can be somewhere between annoying and offensive to ask guests for *MORE MONEY* for the money dance when none of them are familiar with the tradition and they’ve already bought the present or sealed the card. Thank you. You have affirmed what I have been trying to determine. IF something is comfortable within particular groups than it’s acceptable. It would appear that this group freely tosses blanket rules around, so I assumed it was to mean that these traditions are wrong, however well accepted they might be. I’m one of those types that loves ethnic and unusual wedding traditions, and welcome the opportunity to be "shocked" by new customs and ideas.  Ellen

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It was interesting that not one of them seemed particularly concerned about the propriety of gift giving as dictated here on this newsgroup. I’m not Jewish, but I have several Jewish friends who say that giving cash is a BIG thing at Jewish weddings. In fact one gal I know got over $10K in cash gifts (100 invited guests) – a large amount coming from clients of her father’s. I’ve heard the same thing happens at Italian American Weddings, and while tacky, Money Dances DO happen in certain circles and are actually part of the tradition of the reception. While ettiquette may dictate the proper rules of how or when something is done, common practice may say something else entirely. It would be absurd to negate them as not valid or without merit. Societal traditions often rule, in spite of WASP mentalities. Ellen

True, but, in those instances, it’s the giver of the gift who chooses it to be cash (checks, negotiable orders of withdrawal, whatever). It’s not demanded by the HC. It’s traditional in the area in which I grew up to have the bride carry a bag for the cards which people will give her. Often the cards contain the wedding gifts.  We didn’t ask for money for our wedding, but we got it anyway. It’s not so much the gift itself, I think, that you’re perceiving as being the bone of contention here.  It’s more where the impetus for a particular gift comes from. Personally, I was delighted with everything we got.  I still am grateful for the "nest egg" we got for our wedding.  We needed to buy some big-ticket appliances just after our wedding, and, blessedly, they’re still going strong 10+ years after the fact. "Societal traditions often rule, in spite of WASP mentalities." That’s so true — and it *is* acknowledged here.  Noe Spamme has changed her advice on the practice of including mention of deceased family members, after a vigorous discussion about how it is indeed *expected* in some religious traditions  (including my own). Remember that a lot of the etiquette books are written for folks who are perhaps entertaining on a more grand scale than they are accustomed to.  You don’t want to do anything that will make lots of folks uncomfortable, hence the need to check out what "The Experts" say. Me, I read ‘em for entertainment value.  Until my husband buys me that tiara, and the estate and servants that go along with it, I really don’t need some of the "finer" points of hosting very large crowds on a daily basis. — aMAZon "It’s never too late to have a happy childhood."

Response:

Does common sense ever prevail here when it comes to gift giving?

Short answer: No. In fact, the very suggestion that someone made that it would turn into a comparison of $$$ amounts was horrifying. Obviously THAT person has some pretty strange ideas.

Actually, a standard activity at most showers is, specifically, opening gifts.  Since the idea behind a shower is receiving gifts, it’s not that illogical that in many — if not most — circles, opening gifts is expected.  You can see how if showers include opening gifts and if all gifts are supposed to be in cash denominations, this would be a Problem. This subject came up this morning on The View. You might be interested in noting that Barbara Walter’s daughter sent out lovely invitations with a "In lieu of Gifts, donations to these charities would be appreciated" and then listed a bunch of Save the Whales/Ducks/Wolves organizations.

[Okay. Let's be point blank honest: If someone tells you that her daughter or sister already did something, would you seriously say "Wow. That's rude."??? On national television?] I feel very confident that if we did that, much of our family would be hugely offended.  Politics and charities cannot be dictated by a registry,and including dictates about gifts in an invitation is completely out of turn.  I truly hope Ms Walters didn’t throw a blood clot when her daughter said this was already done.  Even if she were completely sure everyone loved her choice of charities and she has no family or friends involved in any industry that may be campaigning against them, she’s completely ahead of herself in sending out directives.  It’s a GIFT, not a requirement. Then Joy Behar mentioned that it’s VERY much an Italian American tradition to be gifted with cash that is often used to pay for the wedding. No one seemed shocked about that and even said it was how many couples/families can afford to have the big wedding with all the frills. Meredith mentioned that even though she registered she only got one glass and one buffet platter so no one paid much attention to her list.

And this refers to events that include overwhelming proportions of people in those ethnic groups. If people who are not "ethnic" — fourth generation mutts like we are, for instance — it would be especially vulgar to adopt a money dance just because Great Grandma had one back in the Old Country when she was married in 1910, and oh, by the way, we want to pay for the honeymoon with it. I’m not Jewish, but I have several Jewish friends who say that giving cash is a BIG thing at Jewish weddings. In fact one gal I know got over $10K in cash gifts (100 invited guests) – a large amount coming from clients of her father’s. I’ve heard the same thing happens at Italian American Weddings, and while tacky, Money Dances DO happen in certain circles and are actually part of the tradition of the reception.

And that’s great. Traditions are a good thing. Doing what your family has come to expect is very comfortable and nice and acceptable.  What isn’t acceptable, though, is yanking a tradition into your celebration because you think it’s a great money maker or quaint: it can be very offensive to "adopt" a profound and serious tradition for the sake of pretty pictures (which is why many churches don’t make themselves available to just everyone), and it can be somewhere between annoying and offensive to ask guests for *MORE MONEY* for the money dance when none of them are familiar with the tradition and they’ve already bought the present or sealed the card. While ettiquette may dictate the proper rules of how or when something is done, common practice may say something else entirely. It would be absurd to negate them as not valid or without merit. Societal traditions often rule, in spite of WASP mentalities.

But if you are carrying through your family’s social or societal tradition, you don’t need to ask how it’s done.  If your family always does something, you don’t need to ask how to do it at your wedding because your family will tell you or help you.  Probably the biggest problem is how to merge traditions in weddings among families with different traditions, but many of the questions in this newsgroup don’t appear to come from that perspective; a good rule of thumb is to shock the fewest number of people that you can, and to offend as few people as you can.  

Response:

And that’s great. Traditions are a good thing. Doing what your family has come to expect is very comfortable and nice and acceptable.  What isn’t acceptable, though, is yanking a tradition into your celebration because you think it’s a great money maker or quaint: it can be very offensive to "adopt" a profound and serious tradition for the sake of pretty pictures (which is why many churches don’t make themselves available to just everyone), and it can be somewhere between annoying and offensive to ask guests for *MORE MONEY* for the money dance when none of them are familiar with the tradition and they’ve already bought the present or sealed the card.

Thank you. You have affirmed what I have been trying to determine. IF something is comfortable within particular groups than it’s acceptable. It would appear that this group freely tosses blanket rules around, so I assumed it was to mean that these traditions are wrong, however well accepted they might be. I’m one of those types that loves ethnic and unusual wedding traditions, and welcome the opportunity to be "shocked" by new customs and ideas.  Ellen

Response:

I have been invited to a shower where it was requested that gift certificates be given because the couple is moving across the country right after the wedding.  I am just not sure what amount to  give.  Any help would be appreciated!!         I would absolutely refuse to go to this shower.  It is clearly just a loot grab.  If I did really want to go, I would either bring a gift that was small and easily packable, or I would bring a gift and then offer to ship it to their new home after the move.  At most, I’d do something like movie gift certificates.  At least then there’s *some* illusion that it’s about the gift rather than the money.

I disagree with Ericka about this being just a gift grab. However, her suggestions are right on the money.  Something small and packable is excellent (a nice set of measuring spoons from Williams-Sonoma comes to mind; I love my set), as well as a "gift certificate" for a present you might send them after they move. The one caveat about gift certificates to a movie or restaruant that I would have would be to make sure that wherever the HC moves to has those movie or restaurant chains.  We’ve gotten GCs that were unusable by us, from people who didn’t realize that while their favorite chain had many outlets in their area, there were none where we live. (what I wouldn’t give for a Trader Joe’s closer than 3.5 hours away!) — aMAZon "It’s never too late to have a happy childhood."

Response:

(what I wouldn’t give for a Trader Joe’s closer than 3.5 hours away!)

I loves our Trader Joe’s….:) Ellen

Response:

A shower is also about guests choosing the gifts themselves instead of being TOLD what to buy for the showeree! Asking for a gift certificate is as VULGAR as asking for cash! Then we’re just going to have to agree to disagree. Weddings, perhaps, but showers have always, in my mind, been about showering a prospective bride and groom with the things THEY need to set up their household, NOT what you think they might like based on YOUR personal tastes and preferences.

Um, here we part company. It is ALWAYS the gift-giver’s prerogative to choose the gift to be given.  Even if it’s a Venus de Milo with a clock in her stomach, it’s still the giver who decides exactly what to give. In the OP’s situation, I can understand the wish to have something small and packable.  Gift certificates often fit both, but there are other things. What if Great-Aunt Mary wants to give a family heirloom diamond ring, but the registry indicates that what the HC wants is something else?  Should she not give the heirloom?  If it were my aunt, I’d much rather be surprised.   (A friend of mine recently got an eight-carat diamond ring from her sister.  Incredibly generous, and certainly nothing that most people would register for.  But oh, what if the sister was told, "no, only things from this list are acceptable"?) — aMAZon "It’s never too late to have a happy childhood."

Response:

(A friend of mine recently got an eight-carat diamond ring from her sister.  Incredibly generous, and certainly nothing that most people would register for.  But oh, what if the sister was told, "no, only things from this list are acceptable"?)

As someone’s sister, I can safely point out that the correct sisterly correction involves a heavy hiking boot and the bride’s butt. [Purveyor and receiver of fine sisterly advice for 30 years]

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A shower is also about guests choosing the gifts themselves instead of being TOLD what to buy for the showeree! Asking for a gift certificate is as VULGAR as asking for cash! Then we’re just going to have to agree to disagree. Weddings, perhaps, but showers have always, in my mind, been about showering a prospective bride and groom with the things THEY need to set up their household, NOT what you think they might like based on YOUR personal tastes and preferences. Um, here we part company. It is ALWAYS the gift-giver’s prerogative to choose the gift to be given.  Even if it’s a Venus de Milo with a clock in her stomach, it’s still the giver who decides exactly what to give. In the OP’s situation, I can understand the wish to have something small and packable.  Gift certificates often fit both, but there are other things. What if Great-Aunt Mary wants to give a family heirloom diamond ring, but the registry indicates that what the HC wants is something else?  Should she not give the heirloom?  If it were my aunt, I’d much rather be surprised. (A friend of mine recently got an eight-carat diamond ring from her sister.  Incredibly generous, and certainly nothing that most people would register for.  But oh, what if the sister was told, "no, only things from this list are acceptable"?)

Does common sense ever prevail here when it comes to gift giving? When 20-somethings graduate from college – celebrate their wedding, friends included – then move away, doesn’t it stand to reason that peers would exercise a little common sense and could appreciate the situation? Of course it’s always up to the giftor to determine the gift, but in the case of shower gift certificates under the right circumstances I think they can be quite appropos. I assumed that in the specific case being discussed we were looking at a Coed shower, not a Lingerie Shower, where I would imagine the couple wouldn’t be opening their cards and passing them around for everyone to examine. In fact, the very suggestion that someone made that it would turn into a comparison of $$$ amounts was horrifying. Obviously THAT person has some pretty strange ideas. This subject came up this morning on The View. You might be interested in noting that Barbara Walter’s daughter sent out lovely invitations with a "In lieu of Gifts, donations to these charities would be appreciated" and then listed a bunch of Save the Whales/Ducks/Wolves organizations. Then Joy Behar mentioned that it’s VERY much an Italian American tradition to be gifted with cash that is often used to pay for the wedding. No one seemed shocked about that and even said it was how many couples/families can afford to have the big wedding with all the frills. Meredith mentioned that even though she registered she only got one glass and one buffet platter so no one paid much attention to her list. It was interesting that not one of them seemed particularly concerned about the propriety of gift giving as dictated here on this newsgroup. I’m not Jewish, but I have several Jewish friends who say that giving cash is a BIG thing at Jewish weddings. In fact one gal I know got over $10K in cash gifts (100 invited guests) – a large amount coming from clients of her father’s. I’ve heard the same thing happens at Italian American Weddings, and while tacky, Money Dances DO happen in certain circles and are actually part of the tradition of the reception. While ettiquette may dictate the proper rules of how or when something is done, common practice may say something else entirely. It would be absurd to negate them as not valid or without merit. Societal traditions often rule, in spite of WASP mentalities. Ellen

Response:

showers have always, in my mind, been about showering a prospective bride and groom with the things THEY need to set up their household

THEY do not NEED gift certificates/cash.  Asking for such a gift is ALWAYS quite VULGAR! Ron Ng Knows!

Response:

My aren’t you confident that your taste and sense of propriety is superior to others. A shower is about gifts….that’s why they call it a shower.

        Well, you would be welcome to ask my friends about the gifts I give and whether or not they appreciate them.  I rather think you’ll find they’re quite pleased, at least based on their reactions.  Nevertheless, the point is that while a shower *is* about gifts, that doesn’t give the guest of honor carte blanche to dictate all the particulars to the guests.  There just isn’t any way you can make that polite. The most that propriety allows for is some gentle guidance when it’s requested.  Showers are the touchiest of all situations from the perspective of the guest of honor and host.  Simply by sending the invitation, you are quite clearly saying that you think the recipient is a close enough friend that you believe she will be interested in spending money on you, because guests cannot come to a shower without bringing a gift.  Already, one is asking more of the guests than for anything other than a child’s birthday party.  Furthermore, it’s often the case that there’s a theme to the shower, which further limits the guests’ discretion in terms of choosing a gift.  But to take it even further and ask for something which is going to be opened in PUBLIC that will specify on it EXACTLY how much the giver spent?  I simply can’t see that as being kind to one’s guests, especially those who might be a little less well heeled than the other guests.  How is the person who spends only a little going to feel about her gift once it’s so baldly compared to everyone elses’?  And I can guarantee that *someone* is going to do something extravagant that’s *really* going to rub it in.  Plus, with everyone knowing the amounts will be so public, there’s going to be a lot of pressure for everyone to be extra generous, thereby heightening the problem.  Obviously the original poster is worried about that, because she was specifically asking what she ought to be spending–she doesn’t want to be embarrassed because she has nowhere to hide. My friends love me so much that they want to make me happy, whatever "that" entails. I feel precisely the same way and would be tickled pink to have ANY inkling of what they would truly appreciate rather than forcing my tastes on them. That’s what friends are about. Right?

        Of *course* friends who choose to give gifts are supposed to want to delight the recipients.  If that’s not their goal, then they shouldn’t put themselves in the position of giving a gift. However, once again, that doesn’t mean that the recipient of the gift gets to dictate exactly what people will buy. On those occasions of being invited to less familiar family members or acquaintances, there is nothing I like to hear more than a squeal of happiness and a "Thank you that’s EXACTLY what I wanted!"  And you can be damn sure it would be off their registry or reflecting their desires even if it meant hiring a PI to bug their phone…lol.  Well maybe not a PI but a sister or mom would do….that’s almost the same.

        Well, you’re preaching to the choir here.  I spend a great deal of time researching and coming up with appropriate and welcome gifts when I give them.  I’m also blessed with friends who trust me to do the same, rather than hamstringing me by insisting I only cough up money (or its close equivalent, the gift certificate) thereby removing virtually all creativity or ability to choose something that will truly delight. Ya know what cracks me up? All these people who go around acting all indignant & huffy  about the ettiquette of gift giving and registrys ie: weddings, who you just know bitch and moan that their husbands or wives or parents don’t know what to buy them for their birthdays, anniversaries and holidays. It’s called TELL THEM….don’t expect them to be mind readers.

        Well, now, I hope that wasn’t directed at me personally, as you’ve never heard me complain about any such thing.  First, I wouldn’t presume to dictate what others would give to me, though where appropriate and asked for, I do provide some general guidance.  Second, gifts are precious to me because of the people and events they represent, not just because of their intrinsic value or other qualities.  Third, the biggest thrill in my book, as a recipient, comes from the person who takes the time and effort to really think about a special gift that represents not only my own personal interests, but also something about the relationship between myself and the giver.  That rarely comes from a registry.  I am not against registries in general. They’re useful things in their appropriate context.  But I am against any potential gift recipient who feels entitled to dictate which gifts will be given or the value of such gifts, and I am firmly against any potential recipient who feels entitled to repay their givers’ generosity with embarrassment. Best wishes, Ericka — The return address on this message works, but it goes to an account I weed out only on occasion.  To send me email, send to my first name dot my last name at home dot com and watch the spelling

Response:

A shower is about gifts….that’s why they call it a shower.

A shower is also about guests choosing the gifts themselves instead of being TOLD what to buy for the showeree! Asking for a gift certificate is as VULGAR as asking for cash! Ron Ng Knows!

Response:

A shower is also about guests choosing the gifts themselves instead of being TOLD what to buy for the showeree! Asking for a gift certificate is as VULGAR as asking for cash!

Then we’re just going to have to agree to disagree. Weddings, perhaps, but showers have always, in my mind, been about showering a prospective bride and groom with the things THEY need to set up their household, NOT what you think they might like based on YOUR personal tastes and preferences. Ellen

Response:

I have a question for everyone about shower gift dollar amounts

It depends on the type of shower. Ordinarily, it’s about $20 to $50 in my circle of people. I have been invited to a shower where it was requested that gift certificates be given because the couple is moving across the country right after the wedding.

How VULGAR! Ron Ng Knows!

Response:

I have a question for everyone about shower gift dollar amounts.  What is the typical amount that you spend for a shower gift. (I know … the typical answer is "whatever you feel you can"  but I would like to know what most of you feel is appropriate). I have been invited to a shower where it was requested that gift certificates be given because the couple is moving across the country right after the wedding.  I am just not sure what amount to  give.  Any help would be appreciated!! Liz C

Response:

I have a question for everyone about shower gift dollar amounts.  What is the typical amount that you spend for a shower gift. (I know … the typical answer is "whatever you feel you can"  but I would like to know what most of you feel is appropriate).

        Shower gifts are *supposed* to be inexpensive.  They’re supposed to be the little incidentals related to housekeeping that a new bride would be presumed not to have.  Of course, these days many brides have already set up housekeeping and don’t really need a full set of kitchen gadgets, but even so, the spirit of the thing is supposed to be more a fun get together with the girls than a major loot haul.   I have been invited to a shower where it was requested that gift certificates be given because the couple is moving across the country right after the wedding.  I am just not sure what amount to  give.  Any help would be appreciated!!

        I would absolutely refuse to go to this shower.  It is clearly just a loot grab.  If I did really want to go, I would either bring a gift that was small and easily packable, or I would bring a gift and then offer to ship it to their new home after the move.  At most, I’d do something like movie gift certificates.  At least then there’s *some* illusion that it’s about the gift rather than the money. Best wishes, Ericka — The return address on this message works, but it goes to an account I weed out only on occasion.  To send me email, send to my first name dot my last name at home dot com and watch the spelling

Response:

I have been invited to a shower where it was requested that gift certificates be given because the couple is moving across the country right after the wedding.  I am just not sure what amount to  give.  Any help would be appreciated!!    I would absolutely refuse to go to this shower.  It is clearly just a loot grab.  If I did really want to go, I would either bring a gift that was small and easily packable, or I would bring a gift and then offer to ship it to their new home after the move.  At most, I’d do something like movie gift certificates.  At least then there’s *some* illusion that it’s about the gift rather than the money.

<Tirade On My aren’t you confident that your taste and sense of propriety is superior to others. A shower is about gifts….that’s why they call it a shower. If you want to be a snot about it, who wants you there anyway? If you were my friend and had that sort of nasty attitude I’d say good riddance and I’m glad I’m moving far away from you. My friends love me so much that they want to make me happy, whatever "that" entails. I feel precisely the same way and would be tickled pink to have ANY inkling of what they would truly appreciate rather than forcing my tastes on them. That’s what friends are about. Right? On those occasions of being invited to less familiar family members or acquaintances, there is nothing I like to hear more than a squeal of happiness and a "Thank you that’s EXACTLY what I wanted!"  And you can be damn sure it would be off their registry or reflecting their desires even if it meant hiring a PI to bug their phone…lol.  Well maybe not a PI but a sister or mom would do….that’s almost the same. Ya know what cracks me up? All these people who go around acting all indignant & huffy  about the ettiquette of gift giving and registrys ie: weddings, who you just know bitch and moan that their husbands or wives or parents don’t know what to buy them for their birthdays, anniversaries and holidays. It’s called TELL THEM….don’t expect them to be mind readers. We know gifts are de riguer at weddings….make sure that they are what the couple needs or wants. What’s the point of being difficult? There’s no pleasure in that. </Tirade Off Ellen

Response:

Question:

Vicki or Jane or both!!! I think we’ve hit the point of truce now… sad, because the children are all grown…

Response:

Rebecca wrote:

Okay, so what could your ex’s SO (wife?) have done to make things better/worse? I don’t believe I’ve come up as a big issue with atty’s or custody eval (except for the name thing)  - which I’m optimistically taking as – if not a good thing, well, not a bad thing either.  Is laying low the best alternative?

My ex’s former SO is an absolute master at this kind of thing. I watched her do it with me.  Later, I watched her do it with her new husband’s ex. I have observed several techniques she uses. 1.  She treats people with respect.  She always acts as though you’re going to be reasonable even when you’re not.  Then, if you are unreasonable, it haunts you because she was so damned nice about you being a jerk. 2.  She not only doesn’t bad mouth BM, she actively supports her role.  There is zero possibility of kids playing their parents off each other with her.  Back when her SS’s BM was being petty and obstructionist, I heard her say to them, "Your mother is your mother. Whatever she says goes."  Looking back, I realized that she had done the same thing with me when I was leery of allowing a total stranger into my child’s life. Once I realized that she wasn’t a threat, I let her do whatever she wanted. 3.  She subtly backs BMs up with their exes.  The best example I can think of is: "Lee is such a wonderful kid; you and Jane are great parents."  I don’t know if there’s a name for the technique, but I wish I could get the hang of it.  By the time she got around to saying something good about me, my ex had totally bought into her sentence.   4.  On the other end, she takes a lot of pressure of the guys, too.  When my ex and I were ready to kill each other over visitation, she just slipped in there and took over the arrangements.  She did that, "Don’t worry, honey, you just go, I call Jane and take care of it" thing.  Then she used Technique 1.  In her new marriage, the BM insisted that DH take one kid every weekend.  For me that would have been a huge inconvenience, but she just said, "It’ll be nice to have time alone with them." 5.  She is always nice to the kids.  If they get on her nerves, she goes shopping.  When they trashed the house every weekend, she hired a cleaning lady to come in Mondays.     This doesn’t sound like much.  I really want to convey some idea of the dimension of her success with this approach, though. This woman is tiny, glamorous, and gorgeous. I met her when I was a frazzled single parent in graduate school.   She has a 3 carat diamond ring and a red mercedes convertible.  Can you imagine anything more likely to get up an ex’s butt during a CS argument?  Yet, last Thanksgiving she, DH, and the kids all had dinner at BM’s house. BM willingly cooked and cleaned everything.  Even though she broke up with my ex, she still gets visitation with my kid. I’m sitting here singing her praises on Usenet.  She’s just amazing. Which brings me to the question of manipulation.  I always here "manipulative" used in a pejorative sense.  I don’t mind being manipulated by this woman one bit, though.  She appears to give and give and give, and then ends up with exactly what she wants.  In the process, she has really done a lot for me, my ex, her DH, his ex, and all the kids.  I am very grateful to her. jane

Response:

Anne Robotti wrote:

And then Vicki or Jane would bitch-slap me back to reality…  :-D

Anne, I really like you.  You make me laugh. jane

Response:

I must mention here that my step-son through my ‘previous ex-husband’ and his ex was a great kid.  He’s not 26 or so.  I’d know Shawn since he was about 5.  Last year he graduated from college.  I went to the ceremony with the ex-brother-in-laws and later we all went to a party of the BMs and had a wonderful time.  The BM and I talked for hours – that would certainly not happen this time with this BM.  It’s nice to know there are really pleasant BM out there. Jeanine – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Sat, 10 Jul 1999 18:41:23 GMT, T.C. wrote:

Damn!  I wish she offered classes… -TC tech.nospam.c…@newsguy.com On 02 Jul 1999 09:18:38 PDT, jane lawrence <jane…@mailexcite.com wrote: Rebecca wrote: Okay, so what could your ex’s SO (wife?) have done to make things better/worse? I don’t believe I’ve come up as a big issue with atty’s or custody eval (except for the name thing)  - which I’m optimistically taking as – if not a good thing, well, not a bad thing either.  Is laying low the best alternative? My ex’s former SO is an absolute master at this kind of thing. I watched her do it with me.  Later, I watched her do it with her new husband’s ex. I have observed several techniques she uses. 1.  She treats people with respect.  She always acts as though you’re going to be reasonable even when you’re not.  Then, if you are unreasonable, it haunts you because she was so damned nice about you being a jerk. 2.  She not only doesn’t bad mouth BM, she actively supports her role.  There is zero possibility of kids playing their parents off each other with her.  Back when her SS’s BM was being petty and obstructionist, I heard her say to them, "Your mother is your mother. Whatever she says goes."  Looking back, I realized that she had done the same thing with me when I was leery of allowing a total stranger into my child’s life. Once I realized that she wasn’t a threat, I let her do whatever she wanted. 3.  She subtly backs BMs up with their exes.  The best example I can think of is: "Lee is such a wonderful kid; you and Jane are great parents."  I don’t know if there’s a name for the technique, but I wish I could get the hang of it.  By the time she got around to saying something good about me, my ex had totally bought into her sentence.   4.  On the other end, she takes a lot of pressure of the guys, too.  When my ex and I were ready to kill each other over visitation, she just slipped in there and took over the arrangements.  She did that, "Don’t worry, honey, you just go, I call Jane and take care of it" thing.  Then she used Technique 1.  In her new marriage, the BM insisted that DH take one kid every weekend.  For me that would have been a huge inconvenience, but she just said, "It’ll be nice to have time alone with them." 5.  She is always nice to the kids.  If they get on her nerves, she goes shopping.  When they trashed the house every weekend, she hired a cleaning lady to come in Mondays.     This doesn’t sound like much.  I really want to convey some idea of the dimension of her success with this approach, though. This woman is tiny, glamorous, and gorgeous. I met her when I was a frazzled single parent in graduate school.   She has a 3 carat diamond ring and a red mercedes convertible.  Can you imagine anything more likely to get up an ex’s butt during a CS argument?  Yet, last Thanksgiving she, DH, and the kids all had dinner at BM’s house. BM willingly cooked and cleaned everything.  Even though she broke up with my ex, she still gets visitation with my kid. I’m sitting here singing her praises on Usenet.  She’s just amazing. Which brings me to the question of manipulation.  I always here "manipulative" used in a pejorative sense.  I don’t mind being manipulated by this woman one bit, though.  She appears to give and give and give, and then ends up with exactly what she wants.  In the process, she has really done a lot for me, my ex, her DH, his ex, and all the kids.  I am very grateful to her. jane

Response:

Carl & Renee wrote:

She has done her part, since, long after I accepted the situation, to make things worse, but initially, it was me.

Renee, what do you mean?! Although, I can see where if BM started being truly considerate and nice, I might try some payback for all the stuff she’s put me through too. And then Vicki or Jane would bitch-slap me back to reality…  :-D Anne

Response:

Hi Rebecca, Eventually, the anger will go away, and I don’t think it’ll have a lot to do with behavioral changes by the BM.  It’ll come more from you as you begin to realize that the only one you’re hurting with your anger is yourself and possibly your children or SC. Recognizing it is the first step to dealing with it and you’re on your way. There’s no explaining what goes through the mind of a woman who, though a relationship was long over, deader than the proverbial dead horse. has convinced herself that you are the reason it died or failed, no matter how distant your entrance onto the scene with the gentleman  might be.  My marriage broke up years before my ex’s new love came on the scene, yet I blamed her for everything I could possibly think of, played the same games your BM is playing, the whole spiel.  It’s a very unhealthy way of thinking and being, but when truth hits, it hits hard.  In the meantime, you work through your issues, as it appears you are trying to do, and as has been posted so many times, keep taking the higher road! Welcome to the group – it’s a great place to let your hair down and be real. R.

Response:

I was so full of venom and self-pity… Rebecca, she could have hung the moon and it wouldn’t have been right… there was nothing, absolutely nothing she could do in my case… cause it was all about me!  It was my decision/choice to think the thoughts, feel the resentments and other emotions… there was nothing she could have done to make it better. She has done her part, since, long after I accepted the situation, to make things worse, but initially, it was me. Sorry.  I know that doesn’t give you much of an answer. R.

Response:

All I can say is, "Get ready for a roller coaster ride."  And–and this is a big and–take off your rose-colored glasses.  If your BM is anywhere near as antagonistic as mine has been, there will be days you will despair about ever having peace in your household again.  Mine has been at it for over three years now and only this week have we seen one small inkling that she might be ready to give it a rest.  (Her mother died suddenly last week.  When she talked to SO yesterday, she told him she has had some time to think and put things in perspective.  She said life’s too short to be fighting all the time.  Personally, actions speak louder than words, and I’ll believe it when I see it.)  Also, be aware of the toll it can and probably will take on your relationship with SO. You might think it will not have any impact, but from my experience (both personally and from what I’ve read here) is that it does.  (My SO and I are attempting to get a counselor lined up as we speak.  I’ve been told that’s a sign of strength, so I guess there’s hope yet.) Anyway, good luck and I hope all works out well for you. Debbie, who doesn’t ask for BM to even be civil to her but would be content with a minimum of neutrality of BM’s part

Response:

We tried that arrangement with my husband’s ex — she was constantly bouncing in and out of my SS’s life.  Visit for a few weeks, then leave for a couple months.  Be back for a month or so, off for three years.  In between there were the various boyfriends, of course. On the advise of an attorney, we arranged a visitation plan where she and her oldest son would visit for x period of time.  After that, it would be her, the son, and whatever flavor of the month for x period of time.  Then, it would increase to taking him out for the afternoon for x period of time. Ya know what happened?  She got mad ’cause things weren’t going the way SHE wanted them to go and went to a mediator within the City (St. Louis now offers those.  Guess it’s cheaper than constantly going back to court).  So, instead of gradually allowing her son to get to know her, his brother (from a different relationship, by the way) and the latest boyfriend (who actually married her), all of a sudden, he starts going for weekends. I thought that was a relatively raw deal since she had agreed with the visitation schedule when it originally came up, and again three years later when she came back into the kid’s life.  But, I think it was because I had just had a baby.  Her grandparents raised her oldest son, my in laws the SS, so I think she couldn’t deal with watching me and this child. Anyway, I know that probably doesn’t help you much.  There was never any kind of custody battle ’cause she’d lose. Cindy

Response:

I do hope you get a counselor lined up sooner not later.  I’m not nagging or anything. .  (My SO

and I are attempting to get a counselor lined up as we speak.  I’ve been told that’s a sign of strength, so I guess there’s hope yet.) Debbie, who doesn’t ask for BM to even be civil to her but would be content with a minimum of neutrality of BM’s part

    I think I would prefer apathy.  Merrie

Response:

Rebecca, Your situation is not unlike mine.  I became acquainted with my husband before he had officially moved out from his ex-GF.  (Though we did not meet in person until after he had moved out.)  They have a four year old girl together who was not a planned child, at least by my husband.  We had a custody evaluation in February and we came out with 50/50 (alternating weeks) joint physical and legal custody and no primary CP.  The evaluations stated that our marriage was too new to be considered stable and the mother’s part was like a rap sheet. Anyway, we have another evaluation in February.  We are trying to get full custody.  We are in the same scenario where SD has problems like wetting her pants during her nap and at night at BM’s house, discipline/behavior problems during her custody week, etc.  BM puts on a big show of pretending to be cooperative if she thinks someone is looking, but generally is vicious and vindictive.  (Our special ed teacher who doesn’t even know her except briefly said she comes across as angry, bitter and having low self-esteem.)  She is unable to communicate without getting personal.  We have limited communication with her to snail-mail writing, since the last time she talked to my husband on the phone she resorted to name calling. The special e-mail account we set up specifically for communicating about SD turned into her opportunity to insult us, so we closed that.  (She blames my husband and me for breaking up their relationship, but in truth, their relationship was broken up before she got pregnant with SD.) I also have no children and we live in California (I relocated from Kansas to marry my husband – best decision I ever made!  Marrying my husband, that is – not relocating, but there was no other choice at the time.) We are going for full custody and will keep going for it.  I don’t have any words of wisdom for you right now, but you are welcome to e-mail me if you ever want to talk. Geri

Response:

Well, I must say that there is hope.  My husbands ex girlfriend (and BM) blamed me for the breakup of thier "relationship".  He left her when she was pregnant and then he met me.  She had always hoped they would reconcile, but I got in the way.  Anyway, we have been married almost 7 years and FINALLY she has developed a little respect for me.  In fact, it was pure hell the first few years.  And my poor stepdaughter was caught in the middle.  But, thankfully, it can get better.  In fact, my SD is visiting us this week and she calls me "mommy" most of the time…well, she informed me today that her real mom doesn’t mind her calling me mommy(MIRACLE) and that her mom told her that she is lucky to have 2 families with 2 mommies!  I almost cried. There is hope and although you and BM will probably never be best friends, you can work through the anger and possibly develop a mutual respect for one another.  Assuming BM is a decent mother.  My SD’s mom happens to be one.Wow, did I just write that? : ) Rebecca <justrebec…@yahoo.com

wrote in message

news:377A7F05.C263E4FB@yahoo.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

I’ve learned a lot lurking on this group (thank you) – esp that this is a really big complicated endeavor.  Looking for some feedback, I guess, maybe just company in my dilemma. My SO is about to go into his SECOND custody eval in less than a year. Evaluator has deemed first parenting plan a "failure" – uncertain of exact language, but something sim to this: 1-co-parenting counselor (different person than the evaluator) failed to understand role 2-mother inability to adapt parenting style to new situation 3-father impatience to reach full timeshare delineated in the program The plan they had laid out incremental increases in my SO’s time w/4yo – you know, within 90 days this, 60 days later that, et cetera. Recalcitrance on mom’s part stretched each increase to the absolute limit – first it was overnights (court order required), then child was having trouble sleeping (not at dad’s), then child was having trouble separating from her, etc.  I’m ambivalent about this – trying to stay focused on kid’s problems (or lack thereof), but this little boy showed *NONE* until mom announced he was going to have problems, now he seems a little uncertain of his footing sometimes. Still, I’m confused why the evaluator put some responsibility on SO – is this a "share the blame" strategy to achieve some appearance of balance?  I mean, mom refused to go to stipulated counseling with SO, this seems to me a much bigger issue than a man that wants to spend time with his son, has been told that the plan’s in place, and then faces incredible resistance from mom even after she’s signed court papers.  He checked with preschool, doctors, etc – no major difficulties EXCEPT around mom, when it is time to go to dad’s.  Once he hits dad’s (always 20-30 minutes late) he’s fine within 3-5 minutes (Yes, they’ve actually timed it). So here he and I are, getting serious with each other.  We’ve tried to go really slow, particularly as relates to his son… this kid LOVES having 2 adults (M/F) together with him, only thing that would be better in his eyes is if it were mommy instead of me.  (That’s ok, BTW, that’s the way it is supposed to be.)  But he and I get along like gangbusters.   (Side giggle: he invites me to play at mommy’s house a lot, sometimes his daddy and I get invited over as a pair.) So what’s my point?  I don’t know, really, I just feel myself teetering on the edge of really *really* falling for this kid (I’m seriously gonzo over his daddy already) and I’m extremely worried about the continued antagonism of BM.  The child comes over to SOs and announces a whole list of things that "mommy told him not to tell daddy" (visiting grandma, getting a bike, et cetera).  He’s in preschool, told us at dinner one night that he has to tell mommy whenever daddy comes to school (he volunteers 1x per week). If this isn’t complicated enough already – I struggle with feeling like an added complication – BM and I know each other slightly – always liked each other – I got involved with SO <probably too quickly and got serious really fast (i.e., pre-final divorce decree).  Before anybody hollers, it’s done – I can’t change it – I’m trying to be sensitive to it.  Spilt milk *big sigh*  I don’t really know if she blames me for the breakup, she hasn’t spoken to SO or I basically since she found out about the relationship. Maybe this is my real question  - anyone seen a really rocky breakup and angry relationship turn into something cooperative, or am I in for 14 years of court battles?   Anyone BEEN the angry one?  What helped you stop being angry (or helped you manage it better)? Only like a million more details, I’m so befuddled today I don’t even know what’s relevant anymore. Oh, I have no kids and we all live in California.  Sorry for the length – thanks for letting me ramble. Rebecca

Response:

Hi Rebecca, I wish I could address some of these issues!  :-) Probably I could if I wasn’t still feeling my way too, but welcome to the journey. Anne Who knows you’ll get tons of good advice… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Rebecca wrote:

I’ve learned a lot lurking on this group (thank you) – esp that this is a really big complicated endeavor.  Looking for some feedback, I guess, maybe just company in my dilemma. My SO is about to go into his SECOND custody eval in less than a year. Evaluator has deemed first parenting plan a "failure" – uncertain of exact language, but something sim to this: 1-co-parenting counselor (different person than the evaluator) failed to understand role 2-mother inability to adapt parenting style to new situation 3-father impatience to reach full timeshare delineated in the program The plan they had laid out incremental increases in my SO’s time w/4yo – you know, within 90 days this, 60 days later that, et cetera. Recalcitrance on mom’s part stretched each increase to the absolute limit – first it was overnights (court order required), then child was having trouble sleeping (not at dad’s), then child was having trouble separating from her, etc.  I’m ambivalent about this – trying to stay focused on kid’s problems (or lack thereof), but this little boy showed *NONE* until mom announced he was going to have problems, now he seems a little uncertain of his footing sometimes. Still, I’m confused why the evaluator put some responsibility on SO – is this a "share the blame" strategy to achieve some appearance of balance?  I mean, mom refused to go to stipulated counseling with SO, this seems to me a much bigger issue than a man that wants to spend time with his son, has been told that the plan’s in place, and then faces incredible resistance from mom even after she’s signed court papers.  He checked with preschool, doctors, etc – no major difficulties EXCEPT around mom, when it is time to go to dad’s.  Once he hits dad’s (always 20-30 minutes late) he’s fine within 3-5 minutes (Yes, they’ve actually timed it). So here he and I are, getting serious with each other.  We’ve tried to go really slow, particularly as relates to his son… this kid LOVES having 2 adults (M/F) together with him, only thing that would be better in his eyes is if it were mommy instead of me.  (That’s ok, BTW, that’s the way it is supposed to be.)  But he and I get along like gangbusters.   (Side giggle: he invites me to play at mommy’s house a lot, sometimes his daddy and I get invited over as a pair.) So what’s my point?  I don’t know, really, I just feel myself teetering on the edge of really *really* falling for this kid (I’m seriously gonzo over his daddy already) and I’m extremely worried about the continued antagonism of BM.  The child comes over to SOs and announces a whole list of things that "mommy told him not to tell daddy" (visiting grandma, getting a bike, et cetera).  He’s in preschool, told us at dinner one night that he has to tell mommy whenever daddy comes to school (he volunteers 1x per week). If this isn’t complicated enough already – I struggle with feeling like an added complication – BM and I know each other slightly – always liked each other – I got involved with SO <probably too quickly and got serious really fast (i.e., pre-final divorce decree).  Before anybody hollers, it’s done – I can’t change it – I’m trying to be sensitive to it.  Spilt milk *big sigh*  I don’t really know if she blames me for the breakup, she hasn’t spoken to SO or I basically since she found out about the relationship. Maybe this is my real question  - anyone seen a really rocky breakup and angry relationship turn into something cooperative, or am I in for 14 years of court battles?   Anyone BEEN the angry one?  What helped you stop being angry (or helped you manage it better)? Only like a million more details, I’m so befuddled today I don’t even know what’s relevant anymore. Oh, I have no kids and we all live in California.  Sorry for the length – thanks for letting me ramble. Rebecca

Response:

Question:

Hi All, I just finished my first workbench and I can’t stand it – I have to do some bragging.

Ihnaks for sharing! It is very refressing to read about someone actually _finishing_ a project. especially when they include thier trials/suceesses and things learned. I’d like to see more of this type of post, and less of the wich BLURFL is best or Norm can cick Roys *ss and Jo-Jo has a cute butt. but I know _that_ is never gonna happen — John {_The views expressed are those of the author and may_} {___not reflect the views of Cabletron Systems Inc.___}

Response:

It is very refressing to read about someone actually _finishing_ a project. especially when they include thier trials/suceesses and things learned. I’d like to see more of this type of post, and less of the wich BLURFL is best or Norm can cick Roys *ss and Jo-Jo has a cute butt. but I know _that_ is never gonna happen

I have to agree with John on this one. The project gloats are usually quite informative. What I really hate are the tool gloats. Makes me just want to go out and buy up all the Unisaws. This really upsets my wife. How do you sneak 15 Unisaws into the shop without her noticing? — Tom Corey to reply remove "nojunk" from address

Response:

What I really hate are the tool gloats. Makes me just want to go out and buy up all the Unisaws. This really upsets my wife.

Then you REALLY dont want to hear about my NEW rosewood(instead of Ebony) infilled, Dovetailed-Steel Soled/Brass sided "Chariot Makers Block Plane" that I just got from Kelly Tools Works, and how it planes Birdseye Maple w/ NO tearout. — John {_The views expressed are those of the author and may_} {___not reflect the views of Cabletron Systems Inc.___}

Response:

What I really hate are the tool gloats. Makes me just want to go out and buy up all the Unisaws. This really upsets my wife. Then you REALLY dont want to hear about my NEW rosewood(instead of Ebony) infilled, Dovetailed-Steel Soled/Brass sided "Chariot Makers Block Plane" that I just got from Kelly Tools Works, and how it planes Birdseye Maple w/ NO tearout. — John

I’ll take 20 of ‘em. More, more I must have more tools!  someone please stop me before I plane again. — Tom Corey to reply remove "nojunk" from address

Response:

This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Part of bragging is showing off what you made! Let’s see some uploaded pictures of your accomplishment. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, I just finished my first workbench and I can’t stand it – I have to do some bragging. Ihnaks for sharing! It is very refressing to read about someone actually _finishing_ a project. especially when they include thier trials/suceesses and things learned. I’d like to see more of this type of post, and less of the wich BLURFL is best or Norm can cick Roys *ss and Jo-Jo has a cute butt. but I know _that_ is never gonna happen — John {_The views expressed are those of the author and may_} {___not reflect the views of Cabletron Systems Inc.___}

Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for David  Whaley Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin:          vcard fn:             David  Whaley n:              Whaley;David org:            Whaley Woodwerks title:          President and CEO x-mozilla-cpt:  ;0 x-mozilla-html: TRUE end:            vcard

Response:

Then you REALLY dont want to hear about my NEW rosewood(instead of Ebony) infilled, Dovetailed-Steel Soled/Brass sided "Chariot Makers Block Plane" that I just got from Kelly Tools Works, and how it planes Birdseye Maple w/ NO tearout. —

No, I don’t (sigh, wondering where the money will come for this new "fix"), but I would like to hear about Kelly’s Tools. I too have a birdseye maple project upcoming and for what I paid for it I can probably justify ( yea, right) a new tool to work it. Broke in Buffalo, Ed Wondering if Rosewood totes are edible Ed

Response:

 Buy her a 1 carat diamond ring first. BC – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -… How do you sneak 15 Unisaws into the shop without her noticing? — Tom Corey to reply remove "nojunk" from address

Response:

Hi All, I just finished my first workbench and I can’t stand it – I have to do some bragging. I found some old workbench tops a local school had thrown in the dumpster.  These were 7′ long and made up of 8/4 maple in wide glue-ups. The only problem was they had weathered to grey in some areas and the glue-ups had split apart in many areas. I grabbed all the wood I could and split the good pieces off and the hard part began. In the past I asked some questions here on using a hand plane and the various methods of sharpening the iron and finally got to put them to work. I planed the faces for glue-ups and put together a wide 7′ long top to be worked on later. Then I glued up pieces into 2X4’s for the legs and stretchers and 4X4’s for the base. I had done some smoothing of soft wood with my plane but getting into that maple was a learning experience to say the least! When I first started I couldn’t even get the plane the length of the 2X much less surface it all for glue-ups. After much tuning, sharpening and swearing I got better and better at getting the work done. I put the bench together with large mortise and tenons and built one large section under the bench into a cabinet and the other half into four large drawers. I used old oak vanities doors some one had thrown out for the cabinet face and made the drawers out of plywood with oak face boards. After I assembled the base and oiled it I placed the top on and started to level it out into final product. I used the plane at 45 degree to the grain method to level it and was amazed at how flat it turned out! It almost self levels going at a angle to the grain like that and was much easier than I expected. My only regret is not having the money for some good wood for the drawers so I could try some dovetails in the sides and not having the expertice to build my own cabinet doors. I’ll try that next time. All told it took me six months (I’m not the fastest woodworker in the world) and cost me the hardware for two vices, a sheet of 1/2 " plywood and some oak facing boards. My wife would like me to move it out of the center of the garage so she can put the car back in but it’s to soon to put it in the corner. Maybe the first of next year after I’m done gazing at it’s beauty!

Response:

Question:

$650.00 OR BEST OFFER!

Response:

i know i should resist, but i CAN’T – i think i’d rather have a 3/4 CARAT diamond ring, because carrots are so huge they’d look terrible in a gold setting! *grin* angie <it’s cabin fever!  i swear!  blizzards in the middle of March!! arrrgggghhhhhhh…… — Breed of the Month!  - Canadienne! www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/cattle

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i know i should resist, but i CAN’T – i think i’d rather have a 3/4 CARAT diamond ring, because carrots are so huge they’d look terrible in a gold setting! *grin* angie <it’s cabin fever!  i swear!  blizzards in the middle of March!! arrrgggghhhhhhh…… — Breed of the Month!  - Canadienne! www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/cattle

Huh. That’s interesting. I don’t think my carrot diamond looks all that shabby (or, "terrible", as you say) in it’s gold setting…

Response:

i think i’d rather have a 3/4 CARAT diamond ring, because carrots are so huge they’d look terrible in a gold setting!

     Oh. My mistake. I thought it was a diamond set in three-quarters of a carrot.      Sort of a weird image, but they say that weddings bring out the weird in people…      (obsmiley for the humor impaired ) Dorothea — Dorothea M. Rovner         | "Nuestras vidas son los rios Gradual Student            | que van a dar en la mar/qu’es el morir." Please remove spamblock from header before replying by email.

Response: