Question:
How strong is Holly’s relationship if she is prepared to throw it all because her partner genuinely tries to do something he thought would be appreciated?
My point being, if Ken had thought such a patronizing action would have been appreciated, it would mean he either didn’t know me well at all (the charitable interpretation) or that it wouldn’t matter to him that he would be offering a tremendous insult. I wouldn’t want to marry someone who either didn’t know me well or wanted to insult me. Capiche? Naturally, it wasn’t an issue that ever actually came up. Ken did know better and he certainly had no intention of insulting me. (No, my father didn’t "give me away" either. No one did, or could. But both Mom and Dad did escort me down the aisle, and they enthusiastically participated emotionally and financially in the wedding.) Holly
Response:
I have to second this. Every situation is different but I wouldn’t advise any one to do this without talking to his fiance first. Also, be *very* careful about asking permission. If you do so, you are giving her parents permission to deny your right to marry. The traditional "groom asking the bride’s father for her hand in marriage" interview is dangerous territory, really. What if you catch her father/parents off-guard and he/they say "No?" I know someone this happened to. Everything worked out in the end, but it was an incredibly awkward conversation, to say the least!
Just had to throw in my 2 cents- my quite traditional parents specifically requested that Steve "ask their blessing" long before we ever got engaged. I knew they wanted this, and though I hadn’t lived with them/been supported by them for 10 years, was happy to oblige if it made them happy. My mom said "When it comes time, Steve should ask for our blessing. Now, I know you’ll do whatever you want to do, but it would just be nice." Amongst my sisters’ husbands, 2 had asked, 2 had not. My dad had commented how much he respected that the 2 who had asked, indeed had the respect for them to do so. However, they would not have said "Yes" if Steve had not asked me first – as a matter of fact, when my BIL asked him..10 years ago now, my dad’s response was "Did you ask her yet? And she said YES?! Um, well, ok then….if you’re sure she said yes." So when it came time for us, Steve asked me, THEN called my parents, and he said something to the effect of "I asked Cherise to marry me and she said yes. We’d like to have your blessing." My parents were thrilled he did this….and a little relieved that I indulged them depsite my independence. ANd I was very proud that Steve was willing to indulge them too. ANyway, moral of the story – I agree that it can be a sensitive area. SOme parents (and women) may resent a man doing this, some may treasure it. I assume you know your future fiance and her family to know what would be best. Cherise – who won’t be "given away" but escorted down the aisle by both her parents …though i’m sure my dad feels a little like he’s giving me away
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have to second this. Every situation is different but I wouldn’t advise any one to do this without talking to his fiance first. Also, be *very* careful about asking permission. If you do so, you are giving her parents permission to deny your right to marry. The traditional "groom asking the bride’s father for her hand in marriage" interview is dangerous territory, really. What if you catch her father/parents off-guard and he/they say "No?" I know someone this happened to. Everything worked out in the end, but it was an incredibly awkward conversation, to say the least!
My family has seen it both ways. My sister’s SO met my dad for lunch and "made his intentions known" to him. I think he phrased it along the lines of "I love your daughter and would like you to know that I intend to propose to her" (thus not really asking permission, but respecting daddy’s supposed "right" to know the guy’s intentions) Of course, my daddy was way confused because he didn’t expect him to do this. Came home to my mother and said, ‘He asked to marry her. Is that all right with us?" My mother replied, "OF COURSE IT IS! I hope you told him that!" :) Whereas, when I got engaged, it would have seemed silly and strange if my fiance had asked my father’s permission. My sister was living with my parents at the time, whereas I’ve been financially and geographically independent for a while. Also, I’m not as "traditional" as my sister. I would probably have been offended if permission had been asked. But I don’t think the way my bro-in-law did it wasn’t offensive. I guess what I’m saying is that the action is not expected, but can sometimes be pleasing to the father. But I implore you to please your bride-to-be first, and worry about her father second! Courtney http://www.ghgcorp.com/courtney
Response:
My boyfriend and I have been dating over 6 years, and I really want him to pick out the ring. We’ve discussed the general style and size, but I don’t want to know anything about when he is going to propose. I can’t wait to be surprised! I’m sure I’ll love the ring he picks out for me 
: As far as the size of the diamond is concerned, by all means, spend : what you can afford. After all, it’s just a piece of jewelry. My : husband : already knew what style ring I would like, and what I thought would be a : good : size for me. I think he picked out the same ring I would have. I love : it. : : Denise :
Response:
On the two-month issue–my husband and I spent $89 for his ring and $825 for mine–it has a nice emrald in the center and several diamonds in channel sets on either side. We saved money by picking out both a synthetic stone and a non-traditional ring, i.e., the big diamond solitare. I have recieved a lot of compliments and have enjoyed it a lot, especially since it is set lower than a diamond and it doesn’t scratch my baby girl like a diamond solitaire would. Look in the phone book for ring dealers. We found a reputable one who worked out of her home (low overhead) and she gave us the great deal on Larry’s ring. I agree with the earlier post–two month’s salary IS outrageous and a waste of money–you have to know how to bargain and where to shop. Susanne Bayes The Birdie Bride Guide: Cheap, Cheap, Cheap Wedding Tips & Suggestions. Why pay more if you don’t have to?
Response:
<<(snip) As far as the size of the diamond is concerned, by all means, spend what you can afford. After all, it’s just a piece of jewelry. My husband already knew what style ring I would like, and what I thought would be a good size for me. I think he picked out the same ring I would have. I love it. Denise I have to disagree on this one. An engagement ring is not "just a piece of jewelry". It symbolizes many things: commitment, love, devotion. The only piece of jewelry more important is your wedding band. My first husband never got around to getting me an engagement ring because of our finances, and I was always disapointed about that. This time I want a ring!! Even if it takes us several months to pay it off. I think an engagement ring is very important and should be chosen carefully and wisely, but you shouldn’t skimp on it. MHO, Cat
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – –Have a discussion with her father…. You intent to marry her, your plans/goals, how you intend to support/ help support her. Try to keep it a suprise for her. (I was stunned to find out my parents knew about my engagement before I did.) NO, NO, NO, NO!!!!!!! Think long and hard before you do this. Many women would be insulted. (Implication that she’s her father’s property and/or requires his advance permission to wed.) Some women continue to think it’s romantic. But be VERY SURE you know which category your intended is in before you do it.
I have to second this. Every situation is different but I wouldn’t advise any one to do this without talking to his fiance first. Also, be *very* careful about asking permission. If you do so, you are giving her parents permission to deny your right to marry. The traditional "groom asking the bride’s father for her hand in marriage" interview is dangerous territory, really. What if you catch her father/parents off-guard and he/they say "No?" I know someone this happened to. Everything worked out in the end, but it was an incredibly awkward conversation, to say the least!
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – –Have a discussion with her father…. You intent to marry her, your plans/goals, how you intend to support/ help support her. Try to keep it a suprise for her. (I was stunned to find out my parents knew about my engagement before I did.) NO, NO, NO, NO!!!!!!! Think long and hard before you do this. Many women would be insulted. (Implication that she’s her father’s property and/or requires his advance permission to wed.) Some women continue to think it’s romantic. But be VERY SURE you know which category your intended is in before you do it. (Had Ken approached my father before he proposed to me, I probably would have said no, broken up with him, and looked for someone who appreciated my independence.) Now, you might have a conversation along these lines AFTER she says yes, if hers is a traditional family, or you might, together, formally ask your families’ blesssings when you tell them your news. But one hopes you already know her family well enough that this is sort of unnecessary (which it was in our case).
I have to agree with Holly here. Many women would be insulted, and it’s wise to get her opinion on this before you do it. Had Brendan asked my father or step-father if he could marry me, I would have been *very* insulted. I probably wouldn’t have broken up with him, but it would have chafed my pride, being a very independent person. As far as the size of the diamond is concerned, by all means, spend what you can afford. After all, it’s just a piece of jewelry. My husband already knew what style ring I would like, and what I thought would be a good size for me. I think he picked out the same ring I would have. I love it. Denise
Response:
Well said Karen. What surprised me was the way Holly would have broken off her engagement had ‘Ken’ done what he thought was traditional and proper. How strong is Holly’s relationship if she is prepared to throw it all because her partner genuinely tries to do something he thought would be appreciated? Holly’s need for recognition as an ‘independent’ person is obviously greater than her need for a stable and loving relationship. Poor Ken. Mike.
Response:
–Have a discussion with her father…. You intent to marry her, your plans/goals, how you intend to support/ help support her. Try to keep it a suprise for her. (I was stunned to find out my parents knew about my engagement before I did.)
NO, NO, NO, NO!!!!!!! Think long and hard before you do this. Many women would be insulted. (Implication that she’s her father’s property and/or requires his advance permission to wed.) Some women continue to think it’s romantic. But be VERY SURE you know which category your intended is in before you do it. (Had Ken approached my father before he proposed to me, I probably would have said no, broken up with him, and looked for someone who appreciated my independence.) Now, you might have a conversation along these lines AFTER she says yes, if hers is a traditional family, or you might, together, formally ask your families’ blesssings when you tell them your news. But one hopes you already know her family well enough that this is sort of unnecessary (which it was in our case). –Spend somewhere between what you feel she is worth, and what you can honestly afford.
Now THAT is the best rule of thumb I have EVER seen. :-) Mind if I use it? Holly (& Ken, married 8/25/96) aka Self-Appointed Wedding Expert
Response:
Should I buy an engagement ring and give it to her when I ask her, or should we go shopping for it together?
Can be done either way, although *I* think the proposal lacks something if there’s no ring ready to present. My husband did what I consider the absolutely perfect thing: He had the diamond (a family stone, but this would apply if he’d purchased it, too) and had the jeweler temporarily set in a plain Tiffany ring. He gave me the ring and I was able to wear it right away when he proposed, but we later went to the jeweler together and I chose the permanent setting I wanted. Most jewelers will also allow you to "exchange" a stone (with approximately equal value) if you buy one and she decides she wants a different shape or something. And you can also present her with a cubic zirconia or a goofy fake-birthstone ring or something of the sort when you propose, and explain that you want her to be able to choose her own "real" ring. Does a couple buy wedding rings together?
Usually, yes, although they don’t have to match. Usually, she chooses her ring and you pay for it, and you choose your ring and she pays for it. Does a married woman wear both the engagement ring and the wedding band? If so, does she wear them on the same finger?
Most American women wear their rings together on the left hand, with the wedding band nearest their palms and the engagement ring nearer the knuckle. Many rings are in fact sold as "wedding sets" which means a matching engagement solitaire and wedding band. Sometimes a "set" also includes a matching husband’s wedding band. However, some people simply use the engagement ring as their wedding ring and wear only the engagement ring, and some wear a plain wedding band for everyday and save the engagement ring for special occasions. I have heard that a wedding ring should cost about 2 months salary, is this a good guidline? Should the wedding ring be "nicer" than the engagement ring?
Well, it’s a rule of thumb that makes sense for some people, but naturally it depends a lot on what your income is, what you can afford without going into debt, what kind of jewelry she likes, what’s considered "normal" in your own social group, and so on. The value of my rings is probably equivalent to about one-and-a-half months of my husband’s gross salary, but he didn’t have to actually spend anywhere near that much since it’s an inherited diamond. The engagement ring usually is far more expensive than the wedding band (if that’s what you meant by "nicer"), because it’s usually a diamond solitaire, sometimes with side stones as well, while the wedding ring is just metal, or has at most very small stones. My advice is to buy the best QUALITY diamond you can afford, not the biggest. I’ve heard the average American engagement diamond is (if I remember right) only about one-quarter carat. (Again, the stone is the biggest cost, so if you buy it first, the additional cost of the ring setting is comparatively small — a few hundred dollars at most — so you can probably afford any ring she likes.) Any help would be greatly appreciated, Anders
Hope this helped. And I hope she says yes! Holly (& Ken, married 8/25/96) aka Self-Appointed Wedding Expert
Response:
(which, BTW was coincidentally marketed by DeBeers, one of the biggest diamond brokers) Actually, they have a worldwide monopoly on diamonds, if I remember correctly. They control all of the mines and thus the supply.
No, that’s not exactly true. They have a monopoly on South African diamonds, and they control how many are sold (which incidentally drives up the price). For example, my diamond is from Russia, and is not a deBeers diamond (not that that makes a huge difference or anything) carrie
Response:
Tough Questions…. Let me tell you how my fience’ and I did it. We didn’t "pick out rings," it’s intended to be a surprise. So, when we would wander by a jewelry store I would point out something I liked and leave it at that. This, as I understand it, is the tradition. It can be a pain but if it is what she wants…… –Have at least the engagement ring when you ask. They do come in matched sets, ring and band. –Have a discussion with her father…. You intent to marry her, your plans/goals, how you intend to support/ help support her. Try to keep it a suprise for her. (I was stunned to find out my parents knew about my engagement before I did.) –Take her somewhere nice, a park or restaurant. Somewhere ‘romantic’ and somewhat private. We were in a garden (the Biltmore House) on my 21st birthday. –To propose, get down on one knee and have ring in hand and ask "Would you marry me?" you can use "will" instead of would, but NEVER "could." –She wears the engagement ring on the second finger (counting from the short skinny one) of her left hand, untill she weds whereupon she wears both that hand. Two months salary is a marketing scheme by DeBeers. DeBeers is the oldest and largest monopoly in the world, they controal ALL of the diamond industry; that, and I don’t like diamonds. I have a pretty sapphire (a dark blue stone) but you should ask her what she likes. However, if she wants traditional….. — A round diamond solitare in a ‘Tiffany’ style setting (plain yellow gold band with four or more plain prongs holding the stone) is standard in the US. –Spend somewhere between what you feel she is worth, and what you can honestly afford. I hope I’ve helped, Adriane My advice is worth exactly what you paid for it…. Go with your heart.
Response:
Not joking exactly, just being unclear. I didn’t mean that you had to _actually_ spend that kind of money on the ring at all! I just meant that if you would not be willing to spend that on your relationship even if the relationship depended on buying that expensive of a ring, then you might out to reconsider.
While I can imagine a long theoretical list of ways I’d spend two months’ salary (or much, much more) for the sake of my love and our relationship, they’re mostly practical and have disturbing implications: hospital bills, living expenses in the case of job loss, etc. I cannot imagine laying that kind of dough for a piece of jewelry, or expecting R to do so. Further, I can’t imagine either of us absentminded types being comfortable walking around with a, for us, huge sum of money dangling off one of a finger…it’d probably get lost in some gardening glove or other… Maybe we should get engagement and wedding tattoos instead– we’ll be sure not to lose ‘em, in that case. 
Cheers, Angie
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(which, BTW was coincidentally marketed by DeBeers, one of the biggest diamond brokers)
Actually, they have a worldwide monopoly on diamonds, if I remember correctly. They control all of the mines and thus the supply. Kind of makes you want to buy simulated, doesn’t it… Erin
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There is also another reason for the two month’s salary thing, I think — if you aren’t committed enough that you would be willing to spend two months salary, and haven’t been committed long enough to save up that much money, then that is a good guideline to suggest you should think about it a little longer….
You’re joking right? Please say you’re joking! I hope no one would actually consider the amount you spend on a ring to be a symbol of commitment! I’d be pretty frightened off if someone thought that by buying me expensive jewelry I’d be convinced of their committment. There are far more – and better – ways to show your committment. Actually, if Steve had wanted to spend 2 months salary on my ring I would have told him no – I’d rather he spent that money on something useful (but then, his two months salary is pretty meager!) Money = committment = love? Hmm, I don’t think so. Why not just buy your bride? Cherise (& Steve…who picked out an incredible – inexpensive ring, and i wouldn’t have any other!)
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There is also another reason for the two month’s salary thing, I think — if you aren’t committed enough that you would be willing to spend two months salary, and haven’t been committed long enough to save up that much money, then that is a good guideline to suggest you should think about it a little longer….
I disagree. I think that although a beautiful ring is important, and certainly a tradition that I want to continue, a down payment for a house is a greater commitment. We are more concerned with spending that kind of money on long-term goals. My ring is beautiful, and I wouldn’t trade it for all the money in the world. I would have been really upset if Jack had spent two month’s salary (which, BTW was coincidentally marketed by DeBeers, one of the biggest diamond brokers) on my ring when we are saving for a house. I think that it all boils down to where your priorities lie. Just my $.02. Lori (& Jack) 2/7/98
Response:
Should I buy an engagement ring and give it to her when I ask her, or should we go shopping for it together?
I am planning to get Suzanne her engagement ring before I ask. Of course, the proposal is not going to be a surprise (although the timing might), and it won’t be for rather a while, so I have the luxury of flat-out asking her now what she would like in an engagement ring…. Also, you will at least need to know what size she wears. I have heard that a wedding ring should cost about 2 months salary, is this a good guidline?
Suzanne has told me that anything over $500 is too much, in her opinion. Since it will be her ring, I suppose I should listen…. I would advise you to spend what it costs to get a ring that you will be proud to give your future wife. Price for price’s sake should be immaterial (in my opinion), so long as you can afford it. There is also another reason for the two month’s salary thing, I think — if you aren’t committed enough that you would be willing to spend two months salary, and haven’t been committed long enough to save up that much money, then that is a good guideline to suggest you should think about it a little longer…. Hope this helps…. – Brooks
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I am from Europe and need some help with American engagement traditions. I have been together with my American girl friend for three years, and I now want to ask her to marry me. I think she would like to be asked in a traditional way, but what is traditional? Should I buy an engagement ring and give it to her when I ask her, or should we go shopping for it together? Does a couple buy wedding rings together? Does a married woman wear both the engagement ring and the wedding band? If so, does she wear them on the same finger? I have heard that a wedding ring should cost about 2 months salary, is this a good guidline? Should the wedding ring be "nicer" than the engagement ring? Any help would be greatly appreciated, Anders
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Anders, You might find http://www.weddingguide.co.uk/GettingEngaged.html interesting. Mike Barratt Wedding Guide UK
Response:
Dear Anders — Congratulations on you upcoming engagement. The "two months’ salary" thing is a marketing ploy by de Beers. Two months’ salary is an outrageous amount to spend on an piece of jewelry no matter how emotionally significant; unless of course, you are very, very wealthy, in which case it is even MORE outrageous. Good luck and God bless. CatBoytoy
Response:
Anders– Congratulations! I’ll try to answer some of your questions… I am from Europe and need some help with American engagement traditions. I have been together with my American girl friend for three years, and I now want to ask her to marry me. I think she would like to be asked in a traditional way, but what is traditional? Should I buy an engagement ring and give it to her when I ask her, or should we go shopping for it together?
It is very romantic and traditional to have the ring when you "pop the question," but many women prefer to be in the process. If you want to have the ring beforehand, it is a good idea to go shopping with her, tell her you’re looking for a new watch or something, and notice what style of ring she looks at. This way you can get a general idea of the size and shape she prefers. One safe way to do this is to give her the engagement diamond set in a solitaire, this way she can put it right on and wear it, but if she wants a different style of mounting, the two of you can select it together to make sure it fits her taste and looks good on her hand. Does a couple buy wedding rings together?
Usually. Some styles of ladies rings consist of two rings which fit together in a specific design, with you having any band of your choice, some couples purchase matching bands, and some people buy totally different bands. Whichever you two decide. Does a married woman wear both the engagement ring and the wedding band? If so, does she wear them on the same finger?
Yes. The wedding band goes on the left ring finger first (closest to the heart) and the engagement ring goes on next. I have heard that a wedding ring should cost about 2 months salary, is this a good guidline? Should the wedding ring be "nicer" than the engagement ring?
This is a guideline originated by DeBeers, so you should be aware that it is part of a marketing plan. This said, however, many men find it useful. Some spend more, some less, it’s really up to you. You must evaluate what you want to purchase, and how much you can afford to spend, and do what feels right. Any help would be greatly appreciated, Anders
HTH, Elisa (& Bill) 10-18-97
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – to try and get (the happily married me) to buy wedding rings? whence they came. — There’s no need to e-mail me a copy of a follow-up; but if you do, please identify it as such. 
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