Question:

the context is occasionally an issue but rereading the same post gets hard at times, Lee

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I can understand that – you have to wade through all the repeat stuff. But then I guess you might have more problems with context if you cannot ’see’ a bit of the stuff down below. for those of us with vision problems it sure is easier, Lee Most newsgroups that I read are strictly bottom-posting.  When I first started reading here and found that the trend was toward top-posting, I found it a little difficult to get used to.  Now I’m quite used to it and in fact prefer it.  Makes it difficult to remember to bottom-post on other newsgroups! Amberle3 Oh, there’s an idea to get the furies going.  Yes, one guy persists in CORRECTING everyone who tops posts.  Keeps referencing RULES written when Thomas Jefferson used the Internet! (G) I could meet you in the middle…<g I have been the subject of at least one such debate.  (should I copy this sentence to the end to meet both ideas?)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sounds like you’ve seen THOSE debates <g Oh, yes, TOP or BOTTOM posting.  What holy grail!!!! (G) Agent is one of the few programs that does recognize the — delimiter. OE will recognize it with the help of an add-on program called OE-Quote-Fix (or something like that). I don’t use it any more. It will also allow you to select top or bottom default posting. Will also strip out the sig like Agent does. Thanks.  When I looked back at the original I did notice the dash-dash and wondered but was too lazy to see if I could find it.  Or I could have asked in the Agent newsgroup (G) Again, thanks. See you are still doing well from the stats (which did not copy/quote???).  Terrific job. (*** – anyone know why Agent sometimes does not pick up certain text and leaves it out of the quote?***) Agent is designed to pick up the — as the begining of the sig and drop the text below it in the reply. I don’t think that you can turn it off either. — Amberle3 249/216/210-minigoal/150? Renewed my commitment to me 3/30/03 – Spring Into Action Exercise Challenge: http://www.angelfire.com/me4/travelgirl/sia.htm – Weight No More Weight Loss Challenge: http://www.angelfire.com/me4/travelgirl/wnm.htm

Response:

Sounds like you’ve seen THOSE debates <g

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oh, yes, TOP or BOTTOM posting.  What holy grail!!!! (G) Agent is one of the few programs that does recognize the — delimiter. OE will recognize it with the help of an add-on program called OE-Quote-Fix (or something like that). I don’t use it any more. It will also allow you to select top or bottom default posting. Will also strip out the sig like Agent does. Thanks.  When I looked back at the original I did notice the dash-dash and wondered but was too lazy to see if I could find it.  Or I could have asked in the Agent newsgroup (G) Again, thanks. See you are still doing well from the stats (which did not copy/quote???).  Terrific job. (*** – anyone know why Agent sometimes does not pick up certain text and leaves it out of the quote?***) Agent is designed to pick up the — as the begining of the sig and drop the text below it in the reply. I don’t think that you can turn it off either.

Response:

for those of us with vision problems it sure is easier, Lee

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Most newsgroups that I read are strictly bottom-posting.  When I first started reading here and found that the trend was toward top-posting, I found it a little difficult to get used to.  Now I’m quite used to it and in fact prefer it.  Makes it difficult to remember to bottom-post on other newsgroups! Amberle3 Oh, there’s an idea to get the furies going.  Yes, one guy persists in CORRECTING everyone who tops posts.  Keeps referencing RULES written when Thomas Jefferson used the Internet! (G) I could meet you in the middle…<g I have been the subject of at least one such debate.  (should I copy this sentence to the end to meet both ideas?) Sounds like you’ve seen THOSE debates <g Oh, yes, TOP or BOTTOM posting.  What holy grail!!!! (G)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Agent is one of the few programs that does recognize the — delimiter. OE will recognize it with the help of an add-on program called OE-Quote-Fix (or something like that). I don’t use it any more. It will also allow you to select top or bottom default posting. Will also strip out the sig like Agent does. Thanks.  When I looked back at the original I did notice the dash-dash and wondered but was too lazy to see if I could find it.  Or I could have asked in the Agent newsgroup (G) Again, thanks. See you are still doing well from the stats (which did not copy/quote???).  Terrific job. (*** – anyone know why Agent sometimes does not pick up certain text and leaves it out of the quote?***) Agent is designed to pick up the — as the begining of the sig and drop the text below it in the reply. I don’t think that you can turn it off either. — Amberle3 249/216/210-minigoal/150? Renewed my commitment to me 3/30/03 – Spring Into Action Exercise Challenge: http://www.angelfire.com/me4/travelgirl/sia.htm – Weight No More Weight Loss Challenge: http://www.angelfire.com/me4/travelgirl/wnm.htm

Response:

I could meet you in the middle…<g

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been the subject of at least one such debate.  (should I copy this sentence to the end to meet both ideas?) Sounds like you’ve seen THOSE debates <g Oh, yes, TOP or BOTTOM posting.  What holy grail!!!! (G) Agent is one of the few programs that does recognize the — delimiter. OE will recognize it with the help of an add-on program called OE-Quote-Fix (or something like that). I don’t use it any more. It will also allow you to select top or bottom default posting. Will also strip out the sig like Agent does. Thanks.  When I looked back at the original I did notice the dash-dash and wondered but was too lazy to see if I could find it.  Or I could have asked in the Agent newsgroup (G) Again, thanks.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – See you are still doing well from the stats (which did not copy/quote???).  Terrific job. (*** – anyone know why Agent sometimes does not pick up certain text and leaves it out of the quote?***) Agent is designed to pick up the — as the begining of the sig and drop the text below it in the reply. I don’t think that you can turn it off either.

Response:

sounds like on in the cats news group I read. Lee

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oh, there’s an idea to get the furies going.  Yes, one guy persists in CORRECTING everyone who tops posts.  Keeps referencing RULES written when Thomas Jefferson used the Internet! (G) I could meet you in the middle…<g I have been the subject of at least one such debate.  (should I copy this sentence to the end to meet both ideas?) Sounds like you’ve seen THOSE debates <g Oh, yes, TOP or BOTTOM posting.  What holy grail!!!! (G) Agent is one of the few programs that does recognize the — delimiter. OE will recognize it with the help of an add-on program called OE-Quote-Fix (or something like that). I don’t use it any more. It will also allow you to select top or bottom default posting. Will also strip out the sig like Agent does. Thanks.  When I looked back at the original I did notice the dash-dash and wondered but was too lazy to see if I could find it.  Or I could have asked in the Agent newsgroup (G) Again, thanks. See you are still doing well from the stats (which did not copy/quote???).  Terrific job. (*** – anyone know why Agent sometimes does not pick up certain text and leaves it out of the quote?***) Agent is designed to pick up the — as the begining of the sig and drop the text below it in the reply. I don’t think that you can turn it off either.

Response:

Most newsgroups that I read are strictly bottom-posting.  When I first started reading here and found that the trend was toward top-posting, I found it a little difficult to get used to.  Now I’m quite used to it and in fact prefer it.  Makes it difficult to remember to bottom-post on other newsgroups! Amberle3 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oh, there’s an idea to get the furies going.  Yes, one guy persists in CORRECTING everyone who tops posts.  Keeps referencing RULES written when Thomas Jefferson used the Internet! (G) I could meet you in the middle…<g I have been the subject of at least one such debate.  (should I copy this sentence to the end to meet both ideas?) Sounds like you’ve seen THOSE debates <g Oh, yes, TOP or BOTTOM posting.  What holy grail!!!! (G) Agent is one of the few programs that does recognize the — delimiter. OE will recognize it with the help of an add-on program called OE-Quote-Fix (or something like that). I don’t use it any more. It will also allow you to select top or bottom default posting. Will also strip out the sig like Agent does. Thanks.  When I looked back at the original I did notice the dash-dash and wondered but was too lazy to see if I could find it.  Or I could have asked in the Agent newsgroup (G) Again, thanks. See you are still doing well from the stats (which did not copy/quote???).  Terrific job. (*** – anyone know why Agent sometimes does not pick up certain text and leaves it out of the quote?***) Agent is designed to pick up the — as the begining of the sig and drop the text below it in the reply. I don’t think that you can turn it off either.

– Amberle3 249/216/210-minigoal/150? Renewed my commitment to me 3/30/03 – Spring Into Action Exercise Challenge: http://www.angelfire.com/me4/travelgirl/sia.htm – Weight No More Weight Loss Challenge: http://www.angelfire.com/me4/travelgirl/wnm.htm

Response:

Yes, I have a silver ring that no longer fits my right hand ring finger. I moved it to the middle finger. The design would not resize easily. My wedding band is very loose, and I want to get it sized, but I will wait until mid-summer at least. I’d like to be closer to goal, and know how much my fingers will swell in the heat before changing the size. My DH has called dibs on the leftover gold! <G Ironically enough, my first wedding band and engagement rings had to be cut off when they started cutting into my finger. I was pregnant with DD#2, and had forgotten to remove them at the beginning of the pregnancy, as I had with the previous 2. They lay in my jewelry box, bits of twisted metal for years. My DH did get me a new wedding ring for our anniversary, a beautiful plain band. After the twins were born, I took those broken rings to a jeweler, who made them into a birthstone neckace, with all the kids’ birthstones, plus the diamond from my ring, symbolizing H and me. — Wendy http://griffinsflight.com/Quilting/quilt1.htm de-fang email address to reply

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For those of you who have been successful in your weightloss, did your fingers change sizes?  Any wedding bands feel looser?  If so, at about what point does your weight loss start affecting your ring size? I’m asking because my engagement ring is styled in such a way that it won’t pair nicely with a band of any kind.  It’s definitely meant to be worn on it’s own.  The day of my wedding (about 13 months from now) I’d love to move this ring to my middle finger on my right hand so my wedding band will be alone on my left.  Of course, my ring is a size 7 3/4 and my middle finger on my right hand is about a 9 1/2. Just wondering if this might be plausable of it’s a silly thought. — M. Alex Robinson The Video Vixen www.iwantmyxtv.com

Response:

My finger size has changed over time too. I have not been able to wear my wedding ring for about 3 years. My mother gave me my fathers ring 2 years ago. I am at risk of losing it because my fingers have started to get smaller. Someday I hope to be able to get my old rings on. {posting this to the right thread}

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For those of you who have been successful in your weightloss, did your fingers change sizes?  Any wedding bands feel looser?  If so, at about what point does your weight loss start affecting your ring size? I’m asking because my engagement ring is styled in such a way that it won’t pair nicely with a band of any kind.  It’s definitely meant to be worn on it’s own.  The day of my wedding (about 13 months from now) I’d love to move this ring to my middle finger on my right hand so my wedding band will be alone on my left.  Of course, my ring is a size 7 3/4 and my middle finger on my right hand is about a 9 1/2. Just wondering if this might be plausable of it’s a silly thought. — M. Alex Robinson The Video Vixen www.iwantmyxtv.com

Response:

I’ve lost 38 lbs and had to remove all but my wedding finger rings.  There are so many on that finger that they have a hard time spinning, but the others did.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For those of you who have been successful in your weightloss, did your fingers change sizes?  Any wedding bands feel looser?  If so, at about what point does your weight loss start affecting your ring size? I’m asking because my engagement ring is styled in such a way that it won’t pair nicely with a band of any kind.  It’s definitely meant to be worn on it’s own.  The day of my wedding (about 13 months from now) I’d love to move this ring to my middle finger on my right hand so my wedding band will be alone on my left.  Of course, my ring is a size 7 3/4 and my middle finger on my right hand is about a 9 1/2. Just wondering if this might be plausable of it’s a silly thought. — M. Alex Robinson The Video Vixen www.iwantmyxtv.com

Response:

For those of you who have been successful in your weightloss, did your fingers change sizes?  Any wedding bands feel looser?  If so, at about what point does your weight loss start affecting your ring size? I’m asking because my engagement ring is styled in such a way that it won’t pair nicely with a band of any kind.  It’s definitely meant to be worn on it’s own.  The day of my wedding (about 13 months from now) I’d love to move this ring to my middle finger on my right hand so my wedding band will be alone on my left.  Of course, my ring is a size 7 3/4 and my middle finger on my right hand is about a 9 1/2. Just wondering if this might be plausable of it’s a silly thought.

My wedding ring is now on my middle finger instead of my ring finger. Either that or cut it which I don’t want to do. I also have two rings on my right hand that I got a lot earlier and are more therefore a better fit. They are both getting to the falling off stage when it’s cold and dry. Belts are another thing. I’m about 8 inches in from the largest size though I’ve only lost about 5 from my waist size. And I have a chain round my neck. It used to fit OK, now it’s far too large. I have several watches (i’ve got a thing about watches) and I keep having to get links removed. I think I keep the jewellers in business round here. Sorry can’t help with when it happened, but it does take a time before it affects fingers. I lost a chin or two early on though! Weight loss can be a pain )) Ray — rmnsuk 273/199/182

Response:

Agent is one of the few programs that does recognize the — delimiter. OE will recognize it with the help of an add-on program called OE-Quote-Fix (or something like that). I don’t use it any more. It will also allow you to select top or bottom default posting. Will also strip out the sig like Agent does.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks.  When I looked back at the original I did notice the dash-dash and wondered but was too lazy to see if I could find it.  Or I could have asked in the Agent newsgroup (G) Again, thanks. See you are still doing well from the stats (which did not copy/quote???).  Terrific job. (*** – anyone know why Agent sometimes does not pick up certain text and leaves it out of the quote?***) Agent is designed to pick up the — as the begining of the sig and drop the text below it in the reply. I don’t think that you can turn it off either.

Response:

I had to make my wedding ring a full size smaller after about 60 lbs. (My watch needed a new band too after I ran out of holes!) —                                  Glen B.                                 Started Sept 9/02                                 Reached goal Mar 24/03                                 256.6/173.5/179

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yep – my fingers definitely changed size.  I now wear a "keeper" band to hold my wedding/engagement rings on.  I’d have them resized, but it costs money, would be tricky, I have funny fingers, and the weather/day can make a huge difference too. — krys UK 157/129.2/126 Started March 1st 2001 GOAL August 16th 2001 …on the move again?… For those of you who have been successful in your weightloss, did your fingers change sizes?  Any wedding bands feel looser?  If so, at about what point does your weight loss start affecting your ring size? I’m asking because my engagement ring is styled in such a way that it won’t pair nicely with a band of any kind.  It’s definitely meant to be worn on it’s own.  The day of my wedding (about 13 months from now) I’d love to move this ring to my middle finger on my right hand so my wedding band will be alone on my left.  Of course, my ring is a size 7 3/4 and my middle finger on my right hand is about a 9 1/2. Just wondering if this might be plausable of it’s a silly thought. — M. Alex Robinson The Video Vixen www.iwantmyxtv.com

Response:

My fingers definitely are slimmer than they were before. I was on the computer a few months ago, got up and whoops!  my pinky ring fell right off!  I’m now wearing a ring that used to fit my left hand ring finger on my right hand. Amberle3

I’ll echo that!  I nearly lost my engagement ring the other day, as it slid past my knuckle!  Whether or not you will be able to transfer your engagement ring to your right hand will depend partly on the size of the knuckles.  If you have knobbly hands, don’t count on it, but if you have chubby, dimply fingers, you might very well.  My engagement and wedding rings were so tight on my left hand that I didn’t wear them at all for 4 years.  Now they are loose on my right hand!  Well, except when my fingers swell, when, like today, they fit the right hand just fine! — Kate  XXXXXX Lady Catherine, Wardrobe Mistress of the Chocolate Buttons http://www.diceyhome.free-online.co.uk Click on Kate’s Pages and explore!

Response:

Yes, my fingers size changed, several times in fact.  Those rings I could wear mid way, are on different fingers now.  Many of my rings I could not wear at all when I was at my heaviest.  Of course from my heaviest ever to now is a 200+ pound loss .  Nothing is the same size, not shoes, socks, rings, whatever…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For those of you who have been successful in your weightloss, did your fingers change sizes?  Any wedding bands feel looser?  If so, at about what point does your weight loss start affecting your ring size? I’m asking because my engagement ring is styled in such a way that it won’t pair nicely with a band of any kind.  It’s definitely meant to be worn on it’s own.  The day of my wedding (about 13 months from now) I’d love to move this ring to my middle finger on my right hand so my wedding band will be alone on my left.  Of course, my ring is a size 7 3/4 and my middle finger on my right hand is about a 9 1/2. Just wondering if this might be plausable of it’s a silly thought. — M. Alex Robinson The Video Vixen www.iwantmyxtv.com

Response:

My fingers definitely are slimmer than they were before. I was on the computer a few months ago, got up and whoops!  my pinky ring fell right off!  I’m now wearing a ring that used to fit my left hand ring finger on my right hand. Amberle3 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For those of you who have been successful in your weightloss, did your fingers change sizes?  Any wedding bands feel looser?  If so, at about what point does your weight loss start affecting your ring size? I’m asking because my engagement ring is styled in such a way that it won’t pair nicely with a band of any kind.  It’s definitely meant to be worn on it’s own.  The day of my wedding (about 13 months from now) I’d love to move this ring to my middle finger on my right hand so my wedding band will be alone on my left.  Of course, my ring is a size 7 3/4 and my middle finger on my right hand is about a 9 1/2. Just wondering if this might be plausable of it’s a silly thought. — M. Alex Robinson The Video Vixen www.iwantmyxtv.com

– Amberle3 249/216/210-minigoal/150? Renewed my commitment to me 3/30/03 – Spring Into Action Exercise Challenge: http://www.angelfire.com/me4/travelgirl/sia.htm – Weight No More Weight Loss Challenge: http://www.angelfire.com/me4/travelgirl/wnm.htm

Response:

See you are still doing well from the stats (which did not copy/quote???).  Terrific job. (*** – anyone know why Agent sometimes does not pick up certain text and leaves it out of the quote?***)

Agent is designed to pick up the — as the begining of the sig and drop the text below it in the reply. I don’t think that you can turn it off either.

Response:

Yep – my fingers definitely changed size.  I now wear a "keeper" band to hold my wedding/engagement rings on.  I’d have them resized, but it costs money, would be tricky, I have funny fingers, and the weather/day can make a huge difference too. — krys UK 157/129.2/126 Started March 1st 2001 GOAL August 16th 2001 …on the move again?…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For those of you who have been successful in your weightloss, did your fingers change sizes?  Any wedding bands feel looser?  If so, at about what point does your weight loss start affecting your ring size? I’m asking because my engagement ring is styled in such a way that it won’t pair nicely with a band of any kind.  It’s definitely meant to be worn on it’s own.  The day of my wedding (about 13 months from now) I’d love to move this ring to my middle finger on my right hand so my wedding band will be alone on my left.  Of course, my ring is a size 7 3/4 and my middle finger on my right hand is about a 9 1/2. Just wondering if this might be plausable of it’s a silly thought. — M. Alex Robinson The Video Vixen www.iwantmyxtv.com

Response:

For those of you who have been successful in your weightloss, did your fingers change sizes?  Any wedding bands feel looser?  If so, at about what point does your weight loss start affecting your ring size? I’m asking because my engagement ring is styled in such a way that it won’t pair nicely with a band of any kind.  It’s definitely meant to be worn on it’s own.  The day of my wedding (about 13 months from now) I’d love to move this ring to my middle finger on my right hand so my wedding band will be alone on my left.  Of course, my ring is a size 7 3/4 and my middle finger on my right hand is about a 9 1/2. Just wondering if this might be plausable of it’s a silly thought. — M. Alex Robinson The Video Vixen www.iwantmyxtv.com

Response:

Question:

Thank you very much.  Your feedback helped clarify things for me. I know where it should go and that soldering makes the most sense in this situation. Luckily, even with the thin anniversary band added, the set will still fit nicely on her proper ring finger, as it should.  I’m not one to want to differ much from tradition and have wedding-related jewelry on the right hand as well. Best wishes, and thanks again, Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Paul – First, I think it wonderful that you are putting such thought into your anniversary gift to your wife.  Kudos to you! Second, I have heard and read conflicting etiquette advice on anniversary bands.  Many times the anniversary band is selected to compliment the engagement ring and wedding band.  Sounds like you are right on target.  The anniversary band is worn closest to the heart on ring finger of the left hand. However, if for some reason the initial wedding ring set won’t comfortably allow the anniversary band, many women wear it on the ring finger on the right hand. As far as soldering the anniversary band to the wedding ring set, it’s your call.  I understand your concern for wanting everything perfectly aligned. Good luck and congratulations on your anniversary. Michele

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am going to be purchasing a channel set anniversary band for my wife.  I have two questions regarding the final configuration that I was hoping someone could help me with. First, is the anniversary band to be worn closest to the hand or on the side where the finger-nail is?  I know that the wedding band was soldered in and is to be worn towards the hand, as it is closer to the heart, but I do not know the etiquette in regards to the anniversary band. Second, should the anniversary band be soldered to the wedding set so that it is properly aligned at all times, or is it supposed to be worn loosely, not connected physically to the wedding ring assembly? I appreciate any help you can provide me with. Thank you, Paul

Response:

Thanks for the feedback.  I am interested in the more traditional ways of doing things, as is my wife.  So, it looks like we will have the Anniversary band added right next to the wedding band, which is right next to the engagement ring, which resides towards the end of the finger. After getting some emails, I believe Soldering makes the most since, because in part, we would want to prevent rubbing against the wedding band and would want to keep the anniversary band aligned properly with the ring, since it contains channeled diamonds on only the top 1/3rd of the outside of the ring. This is a great place to get answers

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am going to be purchasing a channel set anniversary band for my wife.  I have two questions regarding the final configuration that I was hoping someone could help me with. First, is the anniversary band to be worn closest to the hand or on the side where the finger-nail is?  I know that the wedding band was soldered in and is to be worn towards the hand, as it is closer to the heart, but I do not know the etiquette in regards to the anniversary band. Second, should the anniversary band be soldered to the wedding set so that it is properly aligned at all times, or is it supposed to be worn loosely, not connected physically to the wedding ring assembly? These are really personal choices.  There isn’t any etiquette rule about this, though there are more or less traditional ways of doing things.  Anniversary bands are *often* worn on the opposite side of the wedding band from the engagement ring, but really, the most appropriate thing to do is wear it where it *fits*, which might even be on the other hand if it’s an awkward combination with the wedding and engagement rings.  As far as soldering goes, some people prefer it and others don’t.  If you solder it, you lose the ability to wear the rings separately, so if you travel and want to just wear the wedding band without risking the more expensive rings, you don’t have that option.  Others are driven batty by the rings twisting and want them on solidly. Our engagement and wedding rings are soldered together because it makes for better coverage insurance-wise  Just do whatever is comfortable and makes sense for your situation. Best wishes, Ericka

Response:

I am going to be purchasing a channel set anniversary band for my wife.  I have two questions regarding the final configuration that I was hoping someone could help me with. First, is the anniversary band to be worn closest to the hand or on the side where the finger-nail is?  I know that the wedding band was soldered in and is to be worn towards the hand, as it is closer to the heart, but I do not know the etiquette in regards to the anniversary band. Second, should the anniversary band be soldered to the wedding set so that it is properly aligned at all times, or is it supposed to be worn loosely, not connected physically to the wedding ring assembly? I appreciate any help you can provide me with. Thank you, Paul

Response:

Paul – First, I think it wonderful that you are putting such thought into your anniversary gift to your wife.  Kudos to you! Second, I have heard and read conflicting etiquette advice on anniversary bands.  Many times the anniversary band is selected to compliment the engagement ring and wedding band.  Sounds like you are right on target.  The anniversary band is worn closest to the heart on ring finger of the left hand. However, if for some reason the initial wedding ring set won’t comfortably allow the anniversary band, many women wear it on the ring finger on the right hand. As far as soldering the anniversary band to the wedding ring set, it’s your call.  I understand your concern for wanting everything perfectly aligned. Good luck and congratulations on your anniversary. Michele – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am going to be purchasing a channel set anniversary band for my wife.  I have two questions regarding the final configuration that I was hoping someone could help me with. First, is the anniversary band to be worn closest to the hand or on the side where the finger-nail is?  I know that the wedding band was soldered in and is to be worn towards the hand, as it is closer to the heart, but I do not know the etiquette in regards to the anniversary band. Second, should the anniversary band be soldered to the wedding set so that it is properly aligned at all times, or is it supposed to be worn loosely, not connected physically to the wedding ring assembly? I appreciate any help you can provide me with. Thank you, Paul

Response:

I am going to be purchasing a channel set anniversary band for my wife.  I have two questions regarding the final configuration that I was hoping someone could help me with. First, is the anniversary band to be worn closest to the hand or on the side where the finger-nail is?  I know that the wedding band was soldered in and is to be worn towards the hand, as it is closer to the heart, but I do not know the etiquette in regards to the anniversary band. Second, should the anniversary band be soldered to the wedding set so that it is properly aligned at all times, or is it supposed to be worn loosely, not connected physically to the wedding ring assembly?

        These are really personal choices.  There isn’t any etiquette rule about this, though there are more or less traditional ways of doing things.  Anniversary bands are *often* worn on the opposite side of the wedding band from the engagement ring, but really, the most appropriate thing to do is wear it where it *fits*, which might even be on the other hand if it’s an awkward combination with the wedding and engagement rings.  As far as soldering goes, some people prefer it and others don’t.  If you solder it, you lose the ability to wear the rings separately, so if you travel and want to just wear the wedding band without risking the more expensive rings, you don’t have that option.  Others are driven batty by the rings twisting and want them on solidly. Our engagement and wedding rings are soldered together because it makes for better coverage insurance-wise  Just do whatever is comfortable and makes sense for your situation. Best wishes, Ericka

Response:

Question:

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Question:

Someone out there that has been through this oughta know what the answers are on this. Ok, but remember that laws vary, in differing jurisdictions…

Yep, they do and from state to state in the U.S. they can vary dramaticaly. If I have a guitar, for example, then get married, does that guitar belong to my spouse as well?  I think so. Correct me if I am wrong. In most North American jurisdictions, any property that was the sole property of one party *before* the wedding day, remains that parties sole property.

This is true, unless the item becomes something that the entire family ended up using and then it can, sometimes, be regarded as marital property and usually ends up going where ever the children spend the lions share of their time. Where this can get messy is when we’re considering a fixed and appreciating asset, such as an investment, or house/land. In such cases, again, in general, the appreciation of value during the time of the marriage would be subject to 50/50 division.

This is the way it goes in the state I reside in. If I recieve a Television for my birthday, from my parents, even after filing for divorce, isn’t that also a marital asset? Up here, no. The laws here state that a gift given by a family member, unless otherwise stated, becomes a gift to their family member in the marriage. So, that TV would be yours.

In Illinois it follows the same guidline as I stated above in your guitar question. BUT if it is given to you *after* you file it is yours free and clear. *But*, if your folks had given you $400 with which to buy a set, and you put that cash in the joint account, and then bought a TV, *that* TV would be marital, as the $$ would have been co-mingled, thus making the $$ marital, prior to the purchase of the TV.

In my state that would be the same excpet if the TV was bought after filing for divorce. If we have only one vehicle between us, but the vehicle is in my spouses name, but even though they are making all of the payments, and they are the only one driving it, isn’t that still a marital asset? Could be. " They " is your folks, yes ?

Here, yes it is a marital asset, regardless whose name is on the title or who drives it. Insurance policies are assets…  , right? What about savings bonds that are jointly owned by ONE spouse and a child?  (I believe there should be some provision that would indicate that ONLY the child would have a right to the value of the savings bonds)  Not sure what the legal ramifications of this would be… Me neither.

I’m not sure either. So, as far as I can tell, even gifts, (such as the TV) given by others, still becomes marital property because we are still legally married. Right? As I said, not quite. If friends give you the gift ( up here ), said gift is marital property.

Nope, uless the gift is used by the whole family and it turns into something the entire family ended up using. Like a stereo system for example. Even though we have each claimed some individual things as "our own" duing out marriage, (I.E. Tractor is mine, Piano is theirs) these things are still owned by both partners, right? In general, yes. They can be used to trade off with each other. Thus, if the tractor and piano are worth about an equal amount, then you get one, she gets the other, and that trade is balanced. Think of it as trading sports athletes between just two teams. <g

Yep same here. One last question:  Personal things such as clothes and shoes don’t apply to this, but, what about jewelry?  Such as, I bought expensive rings for my significant other, now they want to leave the marriage (I want to work on it)  So if they go through with it, would I be entitled to half the value of the jewelry? Or is this like a ‘clothing’ sort of thing? Unless the jewelery is of little value, I’d say its a marital asset ( Not that it isn’t, if only worth $100, but what would be the point of fighting over a hundred bucks ? ), and trade offs can take it into account. It would likely fall under " real " property, and likely to appreciate in value. Trade it against such things as investments, and retirements.

Personal gifts like jewlery and clothing are never considered as marital property in this state. That includes the engagement and wedding rings. Indy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks for your help. Thats what we do here. Good luck. Andre —

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Someone out there that has been through this oughta know what the answers are on this. Ok, but remember that laws vary, in differing jurisdictions… Yep, they do and from state to state in the U.S. they can vary dramaticaly.

Plus, I’m starting from a Canadiam perspective… Between our provinces, though, not as much variation as with all your states. If I have a guitar, for example, then get married, does that guitar belong to my spouse as well?  I think so. Correct me if I am wrong. In most North American jurisdictions, any property that was the sole property of one party *before* the wedding day, remains that parties sole property. This is true, unless the item becomes something that the entire family ended up using and then it can, sometimes, be regarded as marital property and usually ends up going where ever the children spend the lions share of their time.

Theres one of those variations… That wouldn’t matter up here. Just it’s origin, both familial, and fiscally. Where this can get messy is when we’re considering a fixed and appreciating asset, such as an investment, or house/land. In such cases, again, in general, the appreciation of value during the time of the marriage would be subject to 50/50 division. This is the way it goes in the state I reside in.

From what I understand, this is about the most common " no-fault " formula in North America. If I recieve a Television for my birthday, from my parents, even after filing for divorce, isn’t that also a marital asset? Up here, no. The laws here state that a gift given by a family member, unless otherwise stated, becomes a gift to their family member in the marriage. So, that TV would be yours. In Illinois it follows the same guidline as I stated above in your guitar question. BUT if it is given to you *after* you file it is yours free and clear.

Here, its based on date of marriage, to date of separation ( of which we have no " legal " document specific form therof ). Anything paid for outside of those dates in not marital, in terms of goods beyond a home and land ( even then, only appreciation is marital ). *But*, if your folks had given you $400 with which to buy a set, and you put that cash in the joint account, and then bought a TV, *that* TV would be marital, as the $$ would have been co-mingled, thus making the $$ marital, prior to the purchase of the TV. In my state that would be the same excpet if the TV was bought after filing for divorce.

About the same here, too. Except its the sep date that would count. If we have only one vehicle between us, but the vehicle is in my spouses name, but even though they are making all of the payments, and they are the only one driving it, isn’t that still a marital asset? Could be. " They " is your folks, yes ? Here, yes it is a marital asset, regardless whose name is on the title or who drives it.

That wasn’t a part of my case, so I’m not sure about how that works up here. Insurance policies are assets…, right? What about savings bonds that are jointly owned by ONE spouse and a child?  (I believe there should be some provision that would indicate that ONLY the child would have a right to the value of the savings bonds)  Not sure what the legal ramifications of this would be… Me neither. I’m not sure either.

Well, we’re all on the same page… blank. <g So, as far as I can tell, even gifts, (such as the TV) given by others, still becomes marital property because we are still legally married. Right? As I said, not quite. If friends give you the gift ( up here ), said gift is marital property. Nope, uless the gift is used by the whole family and it turns into something the entire family ended up using. Like a stereo system for example.

Interesting difference… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Even though we have each claimed some individual things as "our own" duing out marriage, (I.E. Tractor is mine, Piano is theirs) these things are still owned by both partners, right? In general, yes. They can be used to trade off with each other. Thus, if the tractor and piano are worth about an equal amount, then you get one, she gets the other, and that trade is balanced. Think of it as trading sports athletes between just two teams. <g Yep same here. One last question:  Personal things such as clothes and shoes don’t apply to this, but, what about jewelry?  Such as, I bought expensive rings for my significant other, now they want to leave the marriage (I want to work on it)  So if they go through with it, would I be entitled to half the value of the jewelry? Or is this like a ‘clothing’ sort of thing? Unless the jewelery is of little value, I’d say its a marital asset ( Not that it isn’t, if only worth $100, but what would be the point of fighting over a hundred bucks ? ), and trade offs can take it into account. It would likely fall under " real " property, and likely to appreciate in value. Trade it against such things as investments, and retirements. Personal gifts like jewlery and clothing are never considered as marital property in this state. That includes the engagement and wedding rings.

As I understand it up here, rings, including wedding rings would stay individual property, but other acquired-during-the-marriage items would likely be seen as effectively equivalent to investments made in the marriage. But, for the most part, we’re talking jewels in the multi thousands. Indy Thanks for your help. Thats what we do here. Good luck.

Andre — " The noblest achievement of the imagination is to make time run some other way, and terminate in beauty and forgivness "                                          David Gelernter, " 1939 "

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Someone out there that has been through this oughta know what the answers are on this. If I have a guitar, for example, then get married, does that guitar belong to my spouse as well?  I think so. Correct me if I am wrong. If I recieve a Television for my birthday, from my parents, even after filing for divorce, isn’t that also a marital asset? If we have only one vehical between us, but the vehical is in my spouses name, but even though they are making all of the payments, and they are the only one driving it, isn’t that still a marital asset? Insurance policies are assets…  , right? What about savings bonds that are jointly owned by ONE spouse and a child?  (I believe there should be some provision that would indicate that ONLY the child would have a right to the value of the savings bonds)  Not sure what the legal ramifications of this would be… So, as far as I can tell, even gifts, (such as the TV) given by others, still becomes marital property because we are still legally married.  Right? Even though we have each claimed some individual things as "our own" duing out marriage, (I.E. Tractor is mine, Piano is theirs) these things are still owned by both partners, right? One last question:  Personal things such as clothes and shoes don’t apply to this, but, what about jewelry?    Such as, I bought expensive rings for my significant other, now they want to leave the marriage (I want to work on it)  So if they go through with it, would I be entitled to half the value of the jewelry? or is this like  a ‘clothing’ sort of thing? Thanks for your help. —

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Someone out there that has been through this oughta know what the answers are on this.

Ok, but remember that laws vary, in differing jurisdictions… If I have a guitar, for example, then get married, does that guitar belong to my spouse as well?  I think so. Correct me if I am wrong.

In most North American jurisdictions, any property that was the sole property of one party *before* the wedding day, remains that parties sole property. Where this can get messy is when we’re considering a fixed and appreciating asset, such as an investment, or house/land. In such cases, again, in general, the appreciation of value during the time of the marriage would be subject to 50/50 division. If I recieve a Television for my birthday, from my parents, even after filing for divorce, isn’t that also a marital asset?

Up here, no. The laws here state that a gift given by a family member, unless otherwise stated, becomes a gift to their family member in the marriage. So, that TV would be yours. *But*, if your folks had given you $400 with which to buy a set, and you put that cash in the joint account, and then bought a TV, *that* TV would be marital, as the $$ would have been co-mingled, thus making the $$ marital, prior to the purchase of the TV. If we have only one vehicle between us, but the vehicle is in my spouses name, but even though they are making all of the payments, and they are the only one driving it, isn’t that still a marital asset?

Could be. " They " is your folks, yes ? Insurance policies are assets…  , right? What about savings bonds that are jointly owned by ONE spouse and a child?  (I believe there should be some provision that would indicate that ONLY the child would have a right to the value of the savings bonds)  Not sure what the legal ramifications of this would be…

Me neither. So, as far as I can tell, even gifts, (such as the TV) given by others, still becomes marital property because we are still legally married.  Right?

As I said, not quite. If friends give you the gift ( up here ), said gift is marital property. Even though we have each claimed some individual things as "our own" duing out marriage, (I.E. Tractor is mine, Piano is theirs) these things are still owned by both partners, right?

In general, yes. They can be used to trade off with each other. Thus, if the tractor and piano are worth about an equal amount, then you get one, she gets the other, and that trade is balanced. Think of it as trading sports athletes between just two teams. <g One last question:  Personal things such as clothes and shoes don’t apply to this, but, what about jewelry?  Such as, I bought expensive rings for my significant other, now they want to leave the marriage (I want to work on it)  So if they go through with it, would I be entitled to half the value of the jewelry? Or is this like a ‘clothing’ sort of thing?

Unless the jewelery is of little value, I’d say its a marital asset ( Not that it isn’t, if only worth $100, but what would be the point of fighting over a hundred bucks ? ), and trade offs can take it into account. It would likely fall under " real " property, and likely to appreciate in value. Trade it against such things as investments, and retirements. Thanks for your help.

Thats what we do here. Good luck. Andre — " The noblest achievement of the imagination is to make time run some other way, and terminate in beauty and forgivness "                                          David Gelernter, " 1939 "

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Someone out there that has been through this oughta know what the answers are on this. If I have a guitar, for example, then get married, does that guitar belong to my spouse as well?  I think so. Correct me if I am wrong.

Property acquired before the marriage is usually separate property. Exceptions are things like a house or car that was acquired, but not yet paid for. If I recieve a Television for my birthday, from my parents, even after filing for divorce, isn’t that also a marital asset?

Was the gift given to you, with ful knowledge that you were in the process of divorcing? If so, then probably not. If we have only one vehical between us, but the vehical is in my spouses name, but even though they are making all of the payments, and they are the only one driving it, isn’t that still a marital asset?

Yes. Insurance policies are assets…  , right?

If they have cash value, yes. What about savings bonds that are jointly owned by ONE spouse and a child?  (I believe there should be some provision that would indicate that ONLY the child would have a right to the value of the savings bonds)  Not sure what the legal ramifications of this would be…

Children don’t own property. It is a marital assett. You can always agree to not consider it, though. So, as far as I can tell, even gifts, (such as the TV) given by others, still becomes marital property because we are still legally married.

Right? Not usually. Exceptions would be something she clearly contributed to. Even though we have each claimed some individual things as "our own" duing out marriage, (I.E. Tractor is mine, Piano is theirs) these things are still owned by both partners, right?

Usually. Exceptions are often made for family heirlooms, and sometimes for inheritances, etc. One last question:  Personal things such as clothes and shoes don’t apply to this, but, what about jewelry?    Such as, I bought expensive rings for my significant other, now they want to leave the marriage (I want to work on it)  So if they go through with it, would I be entitled to half the value of the jewelry? or is this like  a ‘clothing’ sort of thing?

Probably a marital asset. But I’m not a lawyer in your jurisdiction, so ask one of them to be sure. Tony

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Someone out there that has been through this oughta know what the answers are on this. If I have a guitar, for example, then get married, does that guitar belong to my spouse as well?  I think so. Correct me if I am wrong.

Usually not. If I recieve a Television for my birthday, from my parents, even after filing for divorce, isn’t that also a marital asset?

A gift to you is usually your personal property. If we have only one vehical between us, but the vehical is in my spouses name, but even though they are making all of the payments, and they are the only one driving it, isn’t that still a marital asset?

When was it bought?  With what funds? Insurance policies are assets…  , right?

Yes, in more ways than one.  Even a term life policy is valuable if the insured is no longer insurable. See an advisor. Don’t let something irreplaceable lapse if you need the coverage.  What about savings bonds that are jointly owned by ONE spouse and a child?  (I believe there should be some provision that would indicate that ONLY the child would have a right to the value of the savings bonds)  Not sure what the legal ramifications of this would be…

You asked about a lot of other stuff.   Look at the total value.  If it is less than $10,000, come to an agreement that is as close to what you think is fair and then be very grateful.  Your new life is going to centered around issues much bigger than TVs, guitars and even jewelry.

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Someone out there that has been through this oughta know what the answers are on this. Ok, but remember that laws vary, in differing jurisdictions…

very important thing to remember, too!! <good information snipped, but getting long:-)   So, as far as I can tell, even gifts, (such as the TV) given by others, still becomes marital property because we are still legally married. Right? As I said, not quite. If friends give you the gift ( up here ), said gift is marital property.

It will depend on where you live.  I live in MA, and any gifts given to just one of us, during the marriage would remain property of that person.  Gift given to both were marital assets. This is why you need a lawyer familiar with the laws where you live. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – more snippage One last question:  Personal things such as clothes and shoes don’t apply to this, but, what about jewelry?  Such as, I bought expensive rings for my significant other, now they want to leave the marriage (I want to work on it)  So if they go through with it, would I be entitled to half the value of the jewelry? Or is this like a ‘clothing’ sort of thing? Unless the jewelry is of little value, I’d say its a marital asset ( Not that it isn’t, if only worth $100, but what would be the point of fighting over a hundred bucks ? ), and trade offs can take it into account. It would likely fall under " real " property, and likely to appreciate in value. Trade it against such things as investments, and retirements.

Again, it would depend on where you live.  Our mediator has told us that any gifts that were given to each other were not marital assets, including jewelry.  Didn’t matter what the value of the jewelry was, it was whether it was a gift or not. If you don’t want to get a lawyer, try looking up law sites, or go to the library, to see what the laws are where YOU live. Good luck, Cal~ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks for your help. Thats what we do here. Good luck. Andre — " The noblest achievement of the imagination is to make time run some other way, and terminate in beauty and forgivness "                                          David Gelernter, " 1939 "

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Question:

I didn’t think sweat could damage a ring (?)  I can understand it possibly affecting the rhodium plating on the gold, but if you have a 14K gold ring, the gold shouldn’t be affected, I wouldn’t think…(?)  Sweat definitely won’t hurt diamonds.  If you have more info, please post….

Not necessarly the sweat from your hands will tarnish it, but the white powder that they put on latex gloves can. If you have ever worn these types of gloves, you know what I am talking about. These are the ones that leave your hands smelling like an old gym and leaves these white balls of powder mixed with sweat all over your hands. I haven’t read anything specifically, but from experience, these gloves leave my ring full of that powder and it kind of takes some of the luster. So I have to go home and polish it. I know the diamond is OK, but the ring can get tarnished (not damaged, mind my English). I have a white gold ring with the rhodium plating, BTW, and I guess I am afraid of it loosing the shiny surface. So platinum and gold are pretty much safe, but for silver jewerly one must be extra careful since moisture can definetely tarnish it (excesive moisture…like wearing latex gloves all day, every day). My ring is a low profile gold setting with diamonds.  The diamonds are half-channel bezel set, so there isn’t anything "sticking out" from the ring to get snagged on.  The only problem I had was that I got my ring caught in out metal gate outside, and ripped my hand…which would have happened with any ring.  I think if I had a traditional setting with prongs, I would have lost a diamond.

So far, the only problem I’ve had with my traiditional pronged diamond, sticking out of the ring is the incredible amount of pantyhose I break. Oh, and I fell asleep with my hand on my face once and I woke up with this huge "hole" in my cheek. And this is just a 1/3 carat! I can’t imagine how some women deal with those huge diamonds!! I have a fairly hight-set emerald/diamond ring that I learned long ago was impractical for wearing under gloves.  I took this into consideration when we were looking for wedding/e- rings.  I wanted something I could wear all the time, and actually, I never take mine off. -L.

Yep. FH and I looked together for a ring so he knew what I wanted: a plain band (in white gold too) to wear alone for daily wearing. It matches my engagement ring, so I can wear both for special ocassions. I guess the lesson here is to be practical too when you’re looking to buy jewerly. J to R

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Oh!  I hate powdered latex gloves…we use only non-powdered…you should see if your employer can purchase them for you.  They are wonderful. ) -L. — We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals. — Immanuel Kant (1724-1804)

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m a guy who hates diamonds.  I will not support the industry.  My girlfriend knows and accepts this.  ok, so there’s that.  Plus, she doesn’t like gold. What is the difference between the engagement ring and the wedding ring. When I propose and show her the ring, I need to know what she’s expecting. A band, saphires, something big that will stay in a drawer?  Should the wedding ring be a simple band or should it be more extravagant than the engagement ring. Help me out… Gavin

Ask HER!!!!  You’re going to get dozens of answers here and none of them can speak for your girlfriend.  Everyone here has different ideas and different standards for what constitutes a "real" engagement ring and a "real" wedding band. Propose without the ring and take her shopping the next day.  How can we possibly tell you what she’s expecting–you know her and we don’t! gloria p

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Why not go for titanium rings. They are pretty rare but affordable. We are very satisfied with our engagement ring and wedding bands ordered from this web site: http://www.titaniumera.com Our titanium wedding bands are platinum inlayed and look great! Rick – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I’m a guy who hates diamonds.  I will not support the industry.  My girlfriend knows and accepts this.  ok, so there’s that.  Plus, she doesn’t like gold. What is the difference between the engagement ring and the wedding ring. When I propose and show her the ring, I need to know what she’s expecting. A band, saphires, something big that will stay in a drawer?  Should the wedding ring be a simple band or should it be more extravagant than the engagement ring. Help me out… Gavin

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ahahahaha!!!!  $400-$1000 for a titanium ring with cubic zirconia?!!?  you guys are HIGH!!!  A piece of titanium billet large enough to make a ring can easily be had for under $40.  yes, it is difficult to machine, so even charging someone $200 to machine it still leaves you well shy of $400. Titanium is NOT a precious metal.  It is one of the most common elements in the earths crust, its only expensive because its difficult to machine, but it is not $400-$1000 difficult to machine.  anyone considering this, just go buy platinum, make your own ring (ill provide you the name of a billet supplier and machine shop where you could probably have this done for under $200), or shop elsewhere on the net for titanium rings.  these guys should provide a jar of K-Y with each ring for those who take it up the a$$ when they buy.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why not go for titanium rings. They are pretty rare but affordable. We are very satisfied with our engagement ring and wedding bands ordered from this web site: http://www.titaniumera.com Our titanium wedding bands are platinum inlayed and look great! Rick I’m a guy who hates diamonds.  I will not support the industry.  My girlfriend knows and accepts this.  ok, so there’s that.  Plus, she doesn’t like gold. What is the difference between the engagement ring and the wedding ring. When I propose and show her the ring, I need to know what she’s expecting. A band, saphires, something big that will stay in a drawer?  Should the wedding ring be a simple band or should it be more extravagant than the engagement ring. Help me out… Gavin

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fyi, today i talked to my racing parts supplier who machines titanium (mark johnson of www.daliracing.com).  he can do a simple titanium wedding band (polished or unpolished), for under $100 (and still make a profit).  in fact if i do order one from him, he’s thinking of going into the business of making titanium jewelry and undercutting everyone charging absurd prices. in fact i should thank our good friend delorimier for spamming this newsgroup, i never would have thought to ask my parts guy if it wasnt for him.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ahahahaha!!!!  $400-$1000 for a titanium ring with cubic zirconia?!!?  you guys are HIGH!!!  A piece of titanium billet large enough to make a ring can easily be had for under $40.  yes, it is difficult to machine, so even charging someone $200 to machine it still leaves you well shy of $400. Titanium is NOT a precious metal.  It is one of the most common elements in the earths crust, its only expensive because its difficult to machine, but it is not $400-$1000 difficult to machine.  anyone considering this, just go buy platinum, make your own ring (ill provide you the name of a billet supplier and machine shop where you could probably have this done for under $200), or shop elsewhere on the net for titanium rings.  these guys should provide a jar of K-Y with each ring for those who take it up the a$$ when they buy. Why not go for titanium rings. They are pretty rare but affordable. We are very satisfied with our engagement ring and wedding bands ordered from this web site: http://www.titaniumera.com Our titanium wedding bands are platinum inlayed and look great! Rick I’m a guy who hates diamonds.  I will not support the industry.  My girlfriend knows and accepts this.  ok, so there’s that.  Plus, she doesn’t like gold. What is the difference between the engagement ring and the wedding ring. When I propose and show her the ring, I need to know what she’s expecting. A band, saphires, something big that will stay in a drawer?  Should the wedding ring be a simple band or should it be more extravagant than the engagement ring. Help me out… Gavin

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My fiance is a Doc and finds that he often has to remove his rings to conduct various procedures.  For our engagement, I bought him a silver chain that he can use to secure the rings to whenever he must remove them.  I thought it was such a good way to ensure the ring doesn’t get lost that I also purchased a chain with that express purpose in mind. Cheryl (marrying the love of my life in FOUR days!)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am in the science/health field too, and I must admit wearing latex gloves with a traditional diamond solitaire ring in your finger is not exactly the most comfortable thing (plus the gloves can tear easily). Also, the sweat generated by the latex gloves can damage the ring.  I am wearing my solitaire every day just because I am not wearing gloves every day, at least for a few months (not doing "wet lab" for those scientists out there). I will go back to wet lab after my wedding, and what I plan to do is wear the wedding band only, which is just the good old plain band. My FH bought both together, the engagement and wedding band, so they matched perfectly. I’ll be very careful with the band, and I’ll get it cleaned more often so the sweaty gloves don’t tarnish it. The engagement ring will be worn for social activities, going out, and days that I know I’ll not be wearing the latex gloves. Just sharing, J to R, wearing my engagement ring Not necessarily.  While I can understand someone who works with the public not wanting a large gem for social reasons, there is no reason doing so must be impractical.  There are many settings where the gems are set low or flush, and do not impede the use of the hands.  Many people in the sciences (my field) have such rings, as one is always donning gloves, or removing them.  Some settings (bezel, channel) are perfect for this, and the rings have very low profile. HTH, L. — We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals. — Immanuel Kant (1724-1804) Even women who have outrageously large diamond solitaires generally wear them every day, along with their wedding bands.  (Some don’t, and some sensibly leave their engagement rings behind when they’re travelling or doing something for which the ring would prove an impediment, though others almost never remove either ring.) For women in some professions a constant wearing of a large rock is not only impossible but it also makes them feel uncomfortable socially (e.g., a social worker, a doc, etc.)

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I didn’t think sweat could damage a ring (?)  I can understand it possibly affecting the rhodium plating on the gold, but if you have a 14K gold ring, the gold shouldn’t be affected, I wouldn’t think…(?)  Sweat definitely won’t hurt diamonds.  If you have more info, please post…. My ring is a low profile gold setting with diamonds.  The diamonds are half-channel bezel set, so there isn’t anything "sticking out" from the ring to get snagged on.  The only problem I had was that I got my ring caught in out metal gate outside, and ripped my hand…which would have happened with any ring.  I think if I had a traditional setting with prongs, I would have lost a diamond. I have a fairly hight-set emerald/diamond ring that I learned long ago was impractical for wearing under gloves.  I took this into consideration when we were looking for wedding/e- rings.  I wanted something I could wear all the time, and actually, I never take mine off. -L. — We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals. — Immanuel Kant (1724-1804)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am in the science/health field too, and I must admit wearing latex gloves with a traditional diamond solitaire ring in your finger is not exactly the most comfortable thing (plus the gloves can tear easily). Also, the sweat generated by the latex gloves can damage the ring.  I am wearing my solitaire every day just because I am not wearing gloves every day, at least for a few months (not doing "wet lab" for those scientists out there). I will go back to wet lab after my wedding, and what I plan to do is wear the wedding band only, which is just the good old plain band. My FH bought both together, the engagement and wedding band, so they matched perfectly. I’ll be very careful with the band, and I’ll get it cleaned more often so the sweaty gloves don’t tarnish it. The engagement ring will be worn for social activities, going out, and days that I know I’ll not be wearing the latex gloves. Just sharing, J to R, wearing my engagement ring Not necessarily.  While I can understand someone who works with the public not wanting a large gem for social reasons, there is no reason doing so must be impractical.  There are many settings where the gems are set low or flush, and do not impede the use of the hands.  Many people in the sciences (my field) have such rings, as one is always donning gloves, or removing them.  Some settings (bezel, channel) are perfect for this, and the rings have very low profile. HTH, L. — We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals. — Immanuel Kant (1724-1804) Even women who have outrageously large diamond solitaires generally wear them every day, along with their wedding bands.  (Some don’t, and some sensibly leave their engagement rings behind when they’re travelling or doing something for which the ring would prove an impediment, though others almost never remove either ring.) For women in some professions a constant wearing of a large rock is not only impossible but it also makes them feel uncomfortable socially (e.g., a social worker, a doc, etc.)

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Not necessarily.  While I can understand someone who works with the public not wanting a large gem for social reasons, there is no reason doing so must be impractical.  There are many settings where the gems are set low or flush, and do not impede the use of the hands.  Many people in the sciences (my field) have such rings, as one is always donning gloves, or removing them.  Some settings (bezel, channel) are perfect for this, and the rings have very low profile. HTH, L. — We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals. — Immanuel Kant (1724-1804)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Even women who have outrageously large diamond solitaires generally wear them every day, along with their wedding bands.  (Some don’t, and some sensibly leave their engagement rings behind when they’re travelling or doing something for which the ring would prove an impediment, though others almost never remove either ring.) For women in some professions a constant wearing of a large rock is not only impossible but it also makes them feel uncomfortable socially (e.g., a social worker, a doc, etc.)

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what I plan to do is wear the wedding band only, The engagement ring will be worn for social activities, going out

This is what I do.  I spend enough time in the darkroom and digging around in bags (and I nearly broke my finger shortly after i was engaged when my e-ring snagged on the lining of my camera bag and i was in a hurry) that wearing my e-ring with the raised sapphire isn’t always practical.  I specifically chose a wide, plain gold band for a wedding ring so I could wear it always and not worry about snagging or damaging the ring or my fingers.  I wear my e-ring (usually on my right hand) when I’m dressing up or when I know I won’t be working with my hands. Karen Before you buy.

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While I have a diamond engagement ring, my fiance and I elected to have a custom designed wedding band crafted from 18K and platinum.  We designed the ring and had a jeweler craft it.  The mixture of metals is very nice indeed. The flexibility which exists in rings comes down to personal choice – not some arbitrary standard. Best of luck! Cheryl (marrying the love of my life in FIVE days!)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m a guy who hates diamonds.  I will not support the industry.  My girlfriend knows and accepts this.  ok, so there’s that.  Plus, she doesn’t like gold. What is the difference between the engagement ring and the wedding ring. When I propose and show her the ring, I need to know what she’s expecting. A band, saphires, something big that will stay in a drawer?  Should the wedding ring be a simple band or should it be more extravagant than the engagement ring. Help me out… Gavin

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I am in the science/health field too, and I must admit wearing latex gloves with a traditional diamond solitaire ring in your finger is not exactly the most comfortable thing (plus the gloves can tear easily). Also, the sweat generated by the latex gloves can damage the ring.  I am wearing my solitaire every day just because I am not wearing gloves every day, at least for a few months (not doing "wet lab" for those scientists out there). I will go back to wet lab after my wedding, and what I plan to do is wear the wedding band only, which is just the good old plain band. My FH bought both together, the engagement and wedding band, so they matched perfectly. I’ll be very careful with the band, and I’ll get it cleaned more often so the sweaty gloves don’t tarnish it. The engagement ring will be worn for social activities, going out, and days that I know I’ll not be wearing the latex gloves. Just sharing, J to R, wearing my engagement ring

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Not necessarily.  While I can understand someone who works with the public not wanting a large gem for social reasons, there is no reason doing so must be impractical.  There are many settings where the gems are set low or flush, and do not impede the use of the hands.  Many people in the sciences (my field) have such rings, as one is always donning gloves, or removing them.  Some settings (bezel, channel) are perfect for this, and the rings have very low profile. HTH, L. — We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals. — Immanuel Kant (1724-1804) Even women who have outrageously large diamond solitaires generally wear them every day, along with their wedding bands.  (Some don’t, and some sensibly leave their engagement rings behind when they’re travelling or doing something for which the ring would prove an impediment, though others almost never remove either ring.) For women in some professions a constant wearing of a large rock is not only impossible but it also makes them feel uncomfortable socially (e.g., a social worker, a doc, etc.)

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Careful with the titanium thing – make sure you don’t get a ring that’s so strong it can’t be cut off by a saw in case of emergency.  Submarine grade titanium is that hard and could result in big trouble if ever your hand was injured.  I’d way rather lose a ring than a finger! Cheryl (marying the love of my life in FIVE days)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We went shopping for my engagement ring together. My DF thought that it woul be nicer to choose together than for him to pick and hope that I like it. Which was fine with me (If he had gone hiself that sould have been fine too). I have a channel setting werefer to it as an engagemnet band because it is a gold band with 9 smaller diamonds in it verse a ring with one large one (tradtional setting). My friend has a white gold with her birthstone instead of a diamond for her engagement ring. If you do not want a diamong maybe your fiancee birthstone in a ring might be nice. We have also checked out places like – www.titaniumrings.com for other options for my DF band they may have something that is not gold there or you could go with silver. Tara & Barry April 21 2001

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We went shopping for my engagement ring together. My DF thought that it woul be nicer to choose together than for him to pick and hope that I like it. Which was fine with me (If he had gone hiself that sould have been fine too). I have a channel setting werefer to it as an engagemnet band because it is a gold band with 9 smaller diamonds in it verse a ring with one large one (tradtional setting). My friend has a white gold with her birthstone instead of a diamond for her engagement ring. If you do not want a diamong maybe your fiancee birthstone in a ring might be nice. We have also checked out places like – www.titaniumrings.com for other options for my DF band they may have something that is not gold there or you could go with silver. Tara & Barry April 21 2001

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What is the difference between the engagement ring and the wedding ring. When I propose and show her the ring, I need to know what she’s expecting.

Talk to her about what she’s expecting.  That will solve most of your problems right there. As to what the difference is … not much anymore.  In modern tradition the engagement ring is a diamond solitare set in either gold or platinum and the wedding band is a solid band in a matching metal that complements the engagement ring.  That’s the most "common" combination, at lest here in the states. BUT … You don’t have to go that route.  My engagment ring is a square cut sapphire with small diamonds on either side.  I often wear it on my right hand. My wedding ring is a wide plain gold band that I wear on my left hand.  I have a friend who never had an engagement ring; she and her husband chose to spend more money on their wedding rings instead and she has a very nice wide platinum and gold wedding band.  My mother never had an engagement ring, but got a string of engagement pearls instead.  Some women wear the same ring as an engagement and a wedding ring.  You can also get rings with the stones inset into the band instead of mounted above the band.  There are so many different options that it’s just impossible to describe all of them here. Seriously, talk with your girlfriend and ask her what her idea of engagement and wedding rings are.  You might be surprised at what she wants.  I know my husband was surprised when I told him I didn’t want the traditional diamond solitare. Karen Before you buy.

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I’m a guy who hates diamonds.  I will not support the industry.  My girlfriend knows and accepts this.  ok, so there’s that.  Plus, she doesn’t like gold. What is the difference between the engagement ring and the wedding ring. When I propose and show her the ring, I need to know what she’s expecting. A band, saphires, something big that will stay in a drawer?  Should the wedding ring be a simple band or should it be more extravagant than the engagement ring.

An engagement ring is the ring that is given at the time of the engagement. It’s usually a ring with some sort of gemstone — and in popular custom, it seems to be the more expensive of the two rings. The wedding ring is the one used in the marriage ceremony. It is most traditionally a plain band, but lots of people have wedding bands with gems on them too. Most women wear both rings together — if they don’t fit on the same finger, the wedding ring goes on the left hand and the engagement ring on the right. As to what your girlfriend is expecting, who knows? If she dislikes gold, and you dislike diamonds, one possible engagement ring is a silver, white gold,  or platinum ring set with her birthstone or a gem she particularly likes. A plain white gold or platinum band would work nicely for a wedding ring. I’m not sure this would really look good with a silver engagement ring on the same finger — but you can browse rings and figure that out for yourself. Or you could simply propose and then take her shopping, though you’ll both need a sense of humor to deal with jewelers who insist that, because it’s an engagement ring you want, you MUST want a gold ring with a diamond! My husband tells the story that, when he bought my engagement ring, he had to explain MANY TIMES that no, he did NOT want little diamonds on either side of the main stone because he was absolutely, positively sure that his intended wife violently dislikes diamonds and refuses to wear them. Since he was doing his shopping right before Valentine’s Day, he also had to explain that he really couldn’t visualize me wanting a heart-shaped stone either… Wende Before you buy.

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Even women who have outrageously large diamond solitaires generally wear them every day, along with their wedding bands.  (Some don’t, and some sensibly leave their engagement rings behind when they’re travelling or doing something for which the ring would prove an impediment, though others almost never remove either ring.)

For women in some professions a constant wearing of a large rock is not only impossible but it also makes them feel uncomfortable socially (e.g., a social worker, a doc, etc.)

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The engagement ring is the traditional diamond ring.  The wedding band is just that — a band.  Instead of a diamond, I assume you will buy her a sapphire or ruby or emerald instead.  I would suggest platinum if she does not like gold with some other precious stone besides a diamond. Choose a stone you know she likes, perhaps her favorite color.  I love blue and purple, so I would want sapphire or amethyst, but that is me.     You usually shop for wedding rings together sometime before the wedding.  They can match or not.  There are even sets of engagement rings/wedding bands.  That is something you can decide later.  Some people never have a wedding band ro engagement ring.  They just have one ring.  It is really up to you what you want to do.  Good Luck. Kelli – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m a guy who hates diamonds.  I will not support the industry.  My girlfriend knows and accepts this.  ok, so there’s that.  Plus, she doesn’t like gold. What is the difference between the engagement ring and the wedding ring. When I propose and show her the ring, I need to know what she’s expecting. A band, saphires, something big that will stay in a drawer?  Should the wedding ring be a simple band or should it be more extravagant than the engagement ring. Help me out… Gavin

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It is really up to you.  I have *one* nice ring that served as my engagement ring, and during the wedding ceremony, it turned into my wedding ring.  This is unusual however, as the traditional thing to do is get two rings, the engagement ring usually being the more extravagant. -L. — We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals. — Immanuel Kant (1724-1804)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m a guy who hates diamonds.  I will not support the industry.  My girlfriend knows and accepts this.  ok, so there’s that.  Plus, she doesn’t like gold. What is the difference between the engagement ring and the wedding ring. When I propose and show her the ring, I need to know what she’s expecting. A band, saphires, something big that will stay in a drawer?  Should the wedding ring be a simple band or should it be more extravagant than the engagement ring. Help me out… Gavin

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I’m a guy who hates diamonds.  I will not support the industry.  My girlfriend knows and accepts this.  ok, so there’s that.  Plus, she doesn’t like gold. What is the difference between the engagement ring and the wedding ring. When I propose and show her the ring, I need to know what she’s expecting. A band, saphires, something big that will stay in a drawer?  Should the wedding ring be a simple band or should it be more extravagant than the engagement ring.

        Well, I would guess the most *common* engagement ring is a diamond solitaire or something similar, though it’s by no means required.  Many of us have something other than a diamond solitaire and are delighted with it.  I’m a little confused by your question of it being something large that will stay in a drawer.  For heaven’s sake!  Whatever you get her, it ought to be something she’ll wear!  Even women who have outrageously large diamond solitaires generally wear them every day, along with their wedding bands.  (Some don’t, and some sensibly leave their engagement rings behind when they’re travelling or doing something for which the ring would prove an impediment, though others almost never remove either ring.)         Wedding rings are often simple bands.  They are generally plainer than the engagement ring.  Some people feel that the wedding ring should never be taken off, so they go for something that would be comfortable and simple enough to wear in every single situation.  On the other hand, some people have wedding bands that are more complicated and that complement the specific design of the engagement ring.         Really, it doesn’t matter one bit what anyone else imagines your girlfriend might expect.  What matters is that *you* know her well enought to propose in a way that will delight her, however much sleuthing that might require on your part.  It may even be that she’d prefer that you propose without a ring and you then go shopping together for something that suits her (some women like to be in on the process of selecting a ring, and others like to be surprised).  Find out what she likes, and do some research on your own.  Whatever you select, it should fit her requirements and also be a ring that she can wear everyday (probably), so you’ll probably want to go for more durable stones and settings (e.g., opals probably aren’t a great idea If she doesn’t like gold, you can look at platinum settings, or even white gold (if it’s the color of gold she objects to, rather than the metal itself).  Sapphires are fairly common in the non-diamond- engagement ring category, and so are rubies, both of which are quite sturdy.  For myself, I have half a Claddagh ring for an engagement ring (the hands and heart, in rose gold with a bezel-set heart shaped ruby) and the other half for a wedding ring (crown in rose gold, set with tiny diamonds around the base).  Not traditional, and not much in the way of diamonds, but it was perfect for me. Good luck, Ericka

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I’m a guy who hates diamonds.  I will not support the industry.  My girlfriend knows and accepts this.  ok, so there’s that.  Plus, she doesn’t like gold. What is the difference between the engagement ring and the wedding ring. When I propose and show her the ring, I need to know what she’s expecting. A band, saphires, something big that will stay in a drawer?  Should the wedding ring be a simple band or should it be more extravagant than the engagement ring. Help me out… Gavin

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Question:

It goes on the left hand on the finger between the pinky and the middle finger, otherwise known as your "ring finger."  As for sizing, just be sure that your hands are warm when you get it sized.  Cold hands tend to shrink. Jenny – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just bougth the engagement ring and proposed but we are a bit confused where the engagement ring should be worn. The ring has been resized to fit the 4th finger of the left hand, but since, some people told us it should be worn on the 4th finger of the right hand before the wedding, then on the 4th finger of the left hand together with the wedding band after, other told us it should be on the 3rd finger of the left hand. Any idea of what the tradition says? The other problem is that we are going to spend half of the year in Singapore (where the weather is hot) and the other half in Paris (where it can be cold). How to deal with the change of the finger size according to the weather?

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The engagement ring is *usually* worn on the ring finger (third, not counting thumb) of the left hand (in the US).  But she can wear it wherever she wants to.  As long as it’s obvious that it’s an engagement ring (diamond solitaire), people will still get the picture, I’d imagine, and if she doesn’t care that others know she’s engaged or not, she should just wear it where she wants to regardless of what it looks like… (I’m not saying she can’t wear it wherever she wants if it isn’t a *traditional* engagement ring, it’s just that one of the main purposes of having a ring is to let the whole world know you’re "taken".) As far as the temperature differences, if her finger is really going to change sizes a lot, I think there are doohickeys out there that you can put inside the ring to make it more "adjustable"–it will still be tight enough when the finger is small, but not too tight when the finger is larger. –Shawna Winn http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Bistro/6826/index.html "Anyone can be passionate, but it takes real lovers to be silly"  –Rose Franken

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I just bougth the engagement ring and proposed but we are a bit confused where the engagement ring should be worn. The ring has been resized to fit the 4th finger of the left hand, but since, some people told us it should be worn on the 4th finger of the right hand before the wedding, then on the 4th finger of the left hand together with the wedding band after, other told us it should be on the 3rd finger of the left hand. Any idea of what the tradition says?

It goes on the left hand. The other problem is that we are going to spend half of the year in Singapore (where the weather is hot) and the other half in Paris (where it can be cold). How to deal with the change of the finger size according to the weather?

When we got my ring I delibratly made sure my finger was a little bit sweaty so that my ring wouldn’t be uncomfortable in hot weather but would still fit (but just be a bit loose) in freezing weather.  Depesnding on the time of year you’re going to Paris it isn’t that cold there!  In Summer it gets very very hot.

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I just bougth the engagement ring and proposed but we are a bit confused where the engagement ring should be worn. The ring has been resized to fit the 4th finger of the left hand, but since, some people told us it should be worn on the 4th finger of the right hand before the wedding, then on the 4th finger of the left hand together with the wedding band after, other told us it should be on the 3rd finger of the left hand. Any idea of what the tradition says? The other problem is that we are going to spend half of the year in Singapore (where the weather is hot) and the other half in Paris (where it can be cold). How to deal with the change of the finger size according to the weather? Thanks for your help.

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It was a pretty tight squeeze getting that ring on my right hand, I admit.  Lots of lotion before & afterwards. Then you need to seriously drop some of that poundage. Ron Ng Knows!

Actually, fitting differently on different hands has nothing to do with weight!  And, also, to an extent, neither does the size of the ring in the first place.  I know very thin people with huge, thick fingers and also heavier people with spindly hands.  In this case, I think that you’re the one who needs to drop something, Ron. – Melinda. Before you buy.

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It was a pretty tight squeeze getting that ring on my right hand, I admit.  Lots of lotion before & afterwards.

Then you need to seriously drop some of that poundage. Ron Ng Knows!

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The bride switches her engagement to her right hand on the day of the wedding, and then back to her left after wedding bands are exchanged.

My engagement ring is my wedding band…so I will be putting that on my right hand… my fiance will take it off my right hand and put it on my left hand!!

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As far as I’ve heard, the bride does wear the engagement ring on the day of the wedding, but she transfers it to the ring finger of her right hand until after the ceremony. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Does the Bride wear her engagement ring on the Day of the wedding ????   Paul

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What about a pinky finger on that finger?  It was a pretty tight squeeze getting that ring on my right hand, I admit.  Lots of lotion before & afterwards.  A pinky might work just as well, or have the MOB hold onto it during the ceremony. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What if your ring doesn’t fit your right hand finger?  Can’t help it if I’m a freak… -Crystal (and Aaron) August 26, 2000 Muskegon, Michigan I switched mine over to my right hand for the ceremony.  After the ceremony was done, I put it back on my left hand. Hi  Does the Bride wear her engagement ring on the Day of the wedding ????    Paul

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Oops, meant pinky finger on that hand.  Been a long week! *G* – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What about a pinky finger on that finger?  It was a pretty tight squeeze getting that ring on my right hand, I admit.  Lots of lotion before & afterwards.  A pinky might work just as well, or have the MOB hold onto it during the ceremony. What if your ring doesn’t fit your right hand finger?  Can’t help it if I’m a freak… -Crystal (and Aaron) August 26, 2000 Muskegon, Michigan I switched mine over to my right hand for the ceremony.  After the ceremony was done, I put it back on my left hand. Hi  Does the Bride wear her engagement ring on the Day of the wedding ????    Paul

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Paul, The bride switches her engagement to her right hand on the day of the wedding, and then back to her left after wedding bands are exchanged. The sentiment being that she wears her wedding band closer to her heart. Kelly

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The bride switches her engagement to her right hand on the day of the wedding, and then back to her left after wedding bands are exchanged.

Or not.  It’s up to her, but that is the general tradition. I won’t be wearing mine at the ceremony, because it is a Jewish custom not to wear any cut stones under the wedding canapy. Also, I won’t be wearing my band and engagement ring on the same ring finger after the wedding.  I will wear my band on my left and the engagement ring on the right. There is no right way to do it, just different ways. melissa to paul 09-24-00

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What if your ring doesn’t fit your right hand finger?  Can’t help it if I’m a freak… -Crystal (and Aaron) August 26, 2000 Muskegon, Michigan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I switched mine over to my right hand for the ceremony.  After the ceremony was done, I put it back on my left hand. Hi  Does the Bride wear her engagement ring on the Day of the wedding ????    Paul

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Actually, not freaky at all!  Mine doesn’t fit too well on my right hand, either.  That’s because I’m right handed, and overall right-dominated. Bigger right hand, right foot (a half size!!!), and right fingers.  :) – Melinda

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What if your ring doesn’t fit your right hand finger?  Can’t help it if I’m a freak… -Crystal (and Aaron) August 26, 2000 Muskegon, Michigan I switched mine over to my right hand for the ceremony.  After the ceremony was done, I put it back on my left hand. Hi  Does the Bride wear her engagement ring on the Day of the wedding ????    Paul

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Usually she does, and moves it to a different finger, so that the wedding ring can go on unobstructed.  (In my case, this led to the groom trying to put the wedding ring on my middle finger.  After the ceremony she usually puts the engagement ring back on the left ring finger along with the wedding ring. That was U.S. specific advice — don’t know whether it is usual for you. Katherine Hi  Does the Bride wear her engagement ring on the Day of the wedding ????    Paul

– Katherine Sullivan                 Nortel Networks

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Hi  Does the Bride wear her engagement ring on the Day of the wedding ????    Paul

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I switched mine over to my right hand for the ceremony.  After the ceremony was done, I put it back on my left hand. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi  Does the Bride wear her engagement ring on the Day of the wedding ????    Paul

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In Judaism, it is usually only the groom who gives a ring.  This is supposed to be a gift of value to the bride. Similar to the bride having a dowry.  If the ring the bride gives the groom is of the same or less value, it is as though he gave her nothing, and according to Jewish law, it is not a legal marriage.  Hope this clears up any confusion. Mindy & Mark 10-02-99 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (yes, we will exchange rings, mine is of more monetary value, so it is okay for me to give him a ring). Ok, I’m now officially confused.  I’ve never heard of this restriction!  I know that for a Jewish ceremony, the ring is supposed to be continuous and have no stones (so the bride can’t get confused about its value), but I’ve never heard that the groom only wears one if it is of less monetary value. Can someone enlighten me? Irene

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I thought about another idea, since I couldn’t decide for a while which ring I wanted on the inside.  I didn’t like the idea of switching the rings after the ceremony either, because I didn’t want to have to take off my wedding ring so soon.  To do this, you really have to trust your ring bearer, and we did; therefore, both real wedding rings were on the pillow.  I was going to tie both my engagement and wedding rings to the pillow and have Sam take both of them off at once and put them on at the same time, with the wedding ring on the inside.  I think this would have worked; our ring bearer handled the rings very well with no problems.  Ultimately, though, I decided I liked the engagement ring on the inside best, so it was no problem.  (However, I’ve since switched them.  Whatever.)  Go with whatever you decide. -Sara:), and Sam, 8/1/98

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(yes, we will exchange rings, mine is of more monetary value, so it is okay for me to give him a ring).

Ok, I’m now officially confused.  I’ve never heard of this restriction!  I know that for a Jewish ceremony, the ring is supposed to be continuous and have no stones (so the bride can’t get confused about its value), but I’ve never heard that the groom only wears one if it is of less monetary value. Can someone enlighten me? Irene

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That is the "correct" way to do it.  If it doesn’t fit the right hand you can have someone hold it for you or store it somewhere until after the ceremony. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m going to wear mine on my right hand, then switch it after the ceremony. Joy What do I do with my Engagement Ring during the wedding?

Response:

When I was Maid of Honour for a girlfriend I wore her engagement ring until after the ceremony.

This is similar to what I am doing.  We are not only getting married with our wedding rings, but will be carrying on a family tradition and getting married with my great grandparents bands as well.  Our rabbi will have us give each other my grandparents rings, then he will do the traditional ring ceremony (yes, we will exchange rings, mine is of more monetary value, so it is okay for me to give him a ring).  Because we are talking about three rings for me and two for him, my maid of honor will hold my engagement ring until the two bands are placed on my finger, then she will and it to my fianc

Question:

Please encourage your mother to seek a lawyers in put with the care of your grandmother.  It  sounds like the obtaining of guardianship would be a blessing to then provide medical treatment for your grandmother. In most medical facilities a legal power of attorney is needed to ensure proper medical treatment for someone unable to think clearly on their own behalf. For the safety of your grandmother and other family members the sooner medical treatment can be initiated the better.  This may enhance her life for the remainder of her years instead of creating more unnecessary burdens . In the later years of life it has been proven often the roles of living reverse and it may be time for your mother to become the guardian of your grandmother to ensure her well-being.

Response:

Betsy, believe it or not, the "it looks like XYZ, but its a fake/ imposter" thing is fairly common in Alzheimers. I answer questions on AD for allexperts.com and I get questions all the time about this one – i.e. this looks like our house, but it isn’t our house and someone has taken the real one away, you look like my wife, but you are an imposter, these are similar to my things, but the real ones have been stolen and replaced with these phonies. It seems to be a product of brain damage – if you pick up most books about Alzheimers they will mention the phenomenon. I don’t think you can do much about it, but it should be setting off alarm bells in your head. Your family should make contact with your grandmother’s doctor and tell him what you are seeing. If this is AD, you will need to take some steps to prepare for what will come in the future i.e. to get powers of attorney etc. so you can manage her affairs and protect her interests. If she has a lot of valuable possessions, you might want to do what you have to to make sure they are not destroyed or lost – people with AD can do strange things. When my late mother in law was in mid AD, we decided to take her jewellry away after we heard how a family friend suffering from AD had flushed most of hers down the toilet (including her engagement and wedding rings – her daughter was heartbroken). We were too late to save many beautiful family pieces of china which disappeared from my mother in laws possession (stolen by caregivers? given away? thrown away? broken?) Mary G. Before you buy.

Response:

Hi Betsy, I wrote you yesterday and got booted before it got sent. I have a mother with much the same problems you describe.  It came to a head in Aug of 98 when I just took her to an MD appointment I made.  She insisted she wasn’t going up until it was time to get dressed to go and much to my surprise she went, grumbling all the way about high price MDs.  I just keep doing things and taking her along and with all the "no I won’t", she goes.  The MD I took her to I told the basics.  She must not be eating because she is losing weight.  I didn’t know if he would believe her or me because she was so good at calling me a liar.  He simply pulled out a sheet of paper and said he had to ask some pretty silly questions.  It became very obvious that she didn’t know the  day, year or much of anything.  He was real good and praised the little she did know.  Within a month I was called back to the hospital as that is where she landed. {I lived 12 hours away}  The woman I got to be with her for four hours a day, 4 days a week got a call from mom saying she thought she needed to go to the hospital because "something was wrong."  She has been with me since September of 1998.  The MD told her she could no longer live alone.  It was either here to my house or a nursing home. The point of this long story is to say I just played it by ear and the MD was helpful.  I would recommend that you or you and mom get a MD to help you so that your grandma isn’t so scared.  Alzheimers is frightening to the person who is ill and the more info I am armed with, the more helpful I can be.  It is hard enough with the disease.  I tell mom what she has and she doesn’t understand.  I explain to everyone at this point and mom has gotten use to the phrase.  The Alzheimers Association can be real helpful or it is here in Michigan.  If she were my mom and destroying things, I’d find a way to take them. Copy papers and give her the copies.  Pack things away when you clean and she will soon forget them.  Less  "things" makes for less confusion.  I was really afraid when I started and I didn’t know what I would do but I continue to play it by ear.  Mom is back on the money issue this week but it’s been a month since I was last accuse of  stealing it.  Hope this helps some.  But help your mom do something, anything.  It got easier as I went along.  And of course that is all relative! Donna

Response:

Had a long phone conversation with my grandmother today. For the past 23 years, her paranoid delusions and obsessive-compulsive tendencies have been worsening, but most recently have accelerated at an alarming pace. She insists that people are stealing items from her and replacing them with duplicates which are tacky by comparison to the original; she’s convinced upon occasion that my son, ex-husband’s parents, and other relatives are imposters; she claims to have been sedated by unknown individuals while she sleeps; she says people are entering the house through the basement windows and stomping around, making loud noises which apparently only she hears; etc. Mom tells me she’s destroyed many sentimental mementos of her past which meant a lot to us, such as letters, photos, and the like. Today’s phone call involved asking me if I recalled a gash on the piano upon which I learned to play when I was young. My memory is terrible and at first, I couldn’t remember the mark she described, but later recalled it very clearly. But she insisted that it just appeared. Additionally, she wants to tear up the family’s coat-of-arms which she commissioned years ago. My mother begged her to give them to me instead and she simply said that I wouldn’t want them as they weren’t the originals. I placated her and managed to talk her into not tearing them up until I’d had a chance to see them to determine if they’re the real thing or a copy, so I suppose that’s a bit of a success. But now she’s threatening to call the police to report these supposed burglaries. There are many more examples I could list, but I won’t. My mother has yet to say a word to the doctor, but she admitted to me today that she wondered if it was Alzheimer’s. At first she was blaming it on her medicines, which include blood pressure and diabetes treatments. But now she feels that the problem has surpassed that explanation, particularly since she wasn’t on the drugs when the symptoms first began in the late ’70s. I have urged her repeatedly to talk with the doctor, but she says she’d have to do it in front of my grandmother, as she can no longer leave her alone for any length of time at home. She’s unwilling to force my grandmother against her will to seek treatment. You can’t reason with a person in this condition, as their process of rational thinking is completely overshadowed by the delusions. My grandmother will be 88 in just three short months and I realize that the outcome is inevitable, but I want to spare my mother’s daily existence from becoming any more of a living hell than it already is. Please reply via e-mail. Thank you for reading this very long post and for any help you can provide. Betsy in VA

Response:

Karen, this is my opinion, now, but in a way your siblings are right.  You almost have to look to the end so you can get ahead of the game and get things in order and prepare yourself (as much as possible) for this loooong road.  Then you can enjoy the good times you might have from day to day.  Please don’t wait like the others have stated you might regret not having gotten things done sooner.  As for your siblings, they will see, in time, that you were right, but I’m afraid it will make it more difficult for you without their cooperation. Let us know how you are doing.   Norma * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Thanks for all of your replies. My mother is 75 and has lived with her twin sister for the last 20 years. I’ll have to drag her out kicking and screaming to get her to leave! Her Dr. even advised her that she needed to be living with one of us kids but she won’t budge. She told her Dr. that her AD was getting because she remembered where she hid he money last week! It’s really a complicated situation, as I am the youngest and mother has depended on me for many years now. I just hope I don’t let her down this time. Karen

Response:

HI There! no need to "drag her out" – simply tell her she is staying with you for a while – as she adjusts you can then make the suggestion she stay on – remember her powers of reasoning are affected so she may  always say she is going home – every doctor we took  my FIL to said the sooner the better in moving an AD person to safer quarters – while they still have some ability they can adjust to sights and sounds and "dig in" so to speak – good luck!

Response:

Dear Karen, I agree with OzGirl, Karen and Pianoguy. My Mum’s behaviour before the crisis was not really alarming to any of us…just midly forgetful about taking medications eating times etc. Then she wandered away from her home at night ..neighbours found her. A few weeks in hospital with UTI and we realised how bad she had become.  My motto now is "One step behind"  as I now cannot keep up with the deterioration and the precautions we have to take to keep her safe at home. If your instinct tells you that your mother is not safe..she probably isn’t. Please don’t wait for a crisis to happen. Just know that it will not be easy on you to have your mother with you at home. It has been an incredibly stressful 4 months for my immediate family and we now have made the decision to look for permanent residential care for Mum. We have been told the waiting period for a home could be anywhere between 3-12 months depending on where we want to place her. I know I have done the best I could for Mum and that we have had some incredibly close moments together in the last few months. I also regret that my sisters have not had those moments. They are only around in the relatively sane hours of the day just visiting. We are just hanging in there. We have some incredible people here working for various agencies Alzheimers Ass.  and Carers Respite, doing all they possibly can to help us. I would advise you to contact the Alzheimers Association in your area. They will be able to put you in touch with all sorts of help as well as give you advice on what to expect. Keep in touch with this group. I have found them to be the most caring and helpful bunch of people. Above all, look after yourself. Cally * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

If your mum agrees to come and live with you then just do it.  You don’t need to wait around til she harms herselves just to prove a point.   That’s your sibling’s job, yours is to look after your mum and keep her safe because you already know she needs it.  I can’t see their problem as you are the one putting your hand up.  Welcome to the world of parents being cared for by one child Others here will tell you the things you need to do in the US regarding legalities, POA’s etc.  They probably differ to what we do in Australia. You can never be over educated.

My mother has AD and she’s reached to the stage where

she’s forgetting her – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – medication, staying up all night, seeing people, snakes and spiders that aren’t there. My problem is with my older siblings. I believe I need to start making arrangements now to move her in with me so she will be supervised at all times. My siblings say she hasn’t tried to wander off or started any fires yet so there’s nothing to worry about. I talk to the professionals and I am  told I’m doing the right thing. My siblings say I’m getting ahead of myself, that I’m looking to the end and not the time in between and the best one of all is I know *Too Much* I have over educated myself about AD! At present I have the medication problem handled but there’s no one there to watch her all the time or any

safety features such – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – as dead bolts. I need the opinion of some who have been there. Am I over reacting or are they in denial?  I feel in my heart I am doing the right thing. Any input will be greatly appreciated. Karen

Response:

My mother has AD and she’s reached to the stage where she’s forgetting her medication, staying up all night, seeing people, snakes and spiders that aren’t there. My problem is with my older siblings. I believe I need to start making arrangements now to move her in with me so she will be supervised at all times. My siblings say she hasn’t tried to wander off or started any fires yet so there’s nothing to worry about. I talk to the professionals and I am  told I’m doing the right thing. My siblings say I’m getting ahead of myself, that I’m looking to the end and not the time in between and the best one of all is I know *Too Much* I have over educated myself about AD! At present I have the medication problem handled but there’s no one there to watch her all the time or any safety features such as dead bolts. I need the opinion of some who have been there. Am I over reacting or are they in denial?  I feel in my heart I am doing the right thing. Any input will be greatly appreciated. Karen

Response:

I don’t think it’s possible to have too much information.  The best thing you can do for your mother, your siblings, and yourself is get as far ahead of this as you can.  It’s all very well for them to say nothing’s happened "yet" but you don’t want to get to the "told you so" point.  You are not overreacting.   The "time in between" is a hard, dangerous trip.  Try to educate your sibs and hope they will come around to your point of view.  If you must, override them.  I think you’re totally on target.  Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My mother has AD and she’s reached to the stage where she’s forgetting her medication, staying up all night, seeing people, snakes and spiders that aren’t there. My problem is with my older siblings. I believe I need to start making arrangements now to move her in with me so she will be supervised at all times. My siblings say she hasn’t tried to wander off or started any fires yet so there’s nothing to worry about. I talk to the professionals and I am  told I’m doing the right thing. My siblings say I’m getting ahead of myself, that I’m looking to the end and not the time in between and the best one of all is I know *Too Much* I have over educated myself about AD! At present I have the medication problem handled but there’s no one there to watch her all the time or any safety features such as dead bolts. I need the opinion of some who have been there. Am I over reacting or are they in denial?  I feel in my heart I am doing the right thing. Any input will be greatly appreciated. Karen

Response:

When my MIL was exhibiting the characteristics you’re describing we brought her to live with us. Once she was here it quickly became apparent that she was much more advanced than we realized. If you think your Mother needs supervision you are probably correct. — that_pianoguy return email disabled

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t think it’s possible to have too much information.  The best thing you can do for your mother, your siblings, and yourself is get as far ahead of this as you can.  It’s all very well for them to say nothing’s happened "yet" but you don’t want to get to the "told you so" point.  You are not overreacting.   The "time in between" is a hard, dangerous trip.  Try to educate your sibs and hope they will come around to your point of view.  If you must, override them.  I think you’re totally on target.  Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. My mother has AD and she’s reached to the stage where she’s forgetting her medication, staying up all night, seeing people, snakes and spiders that aren’t there. My problem is with my older siblings. I believe I need to start making arrangements now to move her in with me so she will be supervised at all times. My siblings say she hasn’t tried to wander off or started any fires yet so there’s nothing to worry about. I talk to the professionals and I am  told I’m doing the right thing. My siblings say I’m getting ahead of myself, that I’m looking to the end and not the time in between and the best one of all is I know *Too Much* I have over educated myself about AD! At present I have the medication problem handled but there’s no one there to watch her all the time or any safety features such as dead bolts. I need the opinion of some who have been there. Am I over reacting or are they in denial?  I feel in my heart I am doing the right thing. Any input will be greatly appreciated. Karen

Response:

Question:

I apologize if this has been discussed recently, perhaps you can redirect me… I have been offered the ring of a beloved deceased member of my family to serve as my engagement ring.  I am curious about people’s thoughts about the engagement ring being a gift from her own family. Thanks.

Response:

I apologize if this has been discussed recently, perhaps you can redirect me… I have been offered the ring of a beloved deceased member of my family to serve as my engagement ring.  I am curious about people’s thoughts about the engagement ring being a gift from her own family.

My engagement ring was my grandmother’s e-ring.  It means a lot to me to have a ring with a history.   And I don’t really think of it as "a gift from my family."  The ring is symbolic, and it doesn’t matter that my grandfather paid for it rather than my fiance.   Rachel Ward :: Isolde :: Wench 422 :: MiSTie 91289 Bodacious Sylph O’ Nekkidity :: members.aol.com/bodacioussylph "A blisful lyf, a paisible and a swete, Ledden the peples in the former age."   Chaucer, "The Former Age."

Response:

I have my great-great grandmother’s diamond set in my engagement ring.  My FH was rather reluctant to use the diamond- he felt using the stone was cheap.  My sister was engaged before I was and her fianc

Question:

On Fri, 25 Jun 1999 13:40:15 -0400, "Robert" <rs…@catholic.org

wrote: God how I know that one.. Im a man that married a woman that is stuck at the age of 13 (the age her father molested her) She always is scream that she is an adult but is not mature enough to understand that in a marriage BOTH partners have a responsibility in the marriage, ie house keeping, raising the children in a CHRISTIAN enviroment. Instead she leaves the house a mess (stays home with kids all day) complains about how the kids drive her nuts, calls me 3 or more times a day.. most of the time at least once an hour..

What are you doing to fix your marriage? While there surely is more to the story,  it would not surprise me if your wife is clinically depressed … she needs help, perhaps both medication and talk therapy.  Yelling at her, treating her like a child or throwing a Bible in her face is not going to do it. Floridanewbie

Response:

Gogirl <gogir…@my-deja.com writes: I didn’t say "permanently" dependent; but unfortunately, it is not very rare for people to become dependent on their therapist for extended periods of time, even years.

That is not the norm GoGirl.  Sure it happens from time to time.  Ask around; most people have seen a therapist in their lifetime…few have become addicted to them.  I can’t help but think of Woody Allen as you describe this dependency.   You might want to watch "What about Bob" with Bill Murray and Richard Dreyffus.  It is hilarious and is about a guy who thinks that he can’t live without his therapist.  Sure it can happen…but remember one thing…you are in charge, not the therapist.  When you are seeing a therapist and you feel dependent, you either talk about it in a session or you quit.  No one twists your arm to stay. It sounds to me like you might be using this  as an excuse to avoid going for help.  There are many excuses that people use…not everyone is hip on embracing their problems.   ~~~~Don’t spit into the well–you might drink from it later.~~~

Response:

God how I know that one.. Im a man that married a woman that is stuck at the age of 13 (the age her father molested her) She always is scream that she is an adult but is not mature enough to understand that in a marriage BOTH partners have a responsibility in the marriage, ie house keeping, raising the children in a CHRISTIAN enviroment. Instead she leaves the house a mess (stays home with kids all day) complains about how the kids drive her nuts, calls me 3 or more times a day.. most of the time at least once an hour.. Robert 1 Dumb Chick <1dumbch…@my-deja.com

wrote in message

<7klncd$do…@nnrp1.deja.com

…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

I met a man over a decade ago.  It seemed like we fell in love.  We got married.  I knew he had problems because he came from a dysfunctional family, but so what, so did I.  In spite of his past, he seemed strong and capable.  He is brillant.  He was loyal, hardworking and caring. He had terrible relationships before and stated that he was ready to settle with one woman who he could trust.   We had many common interests and the same sense of humor about life.  He had faced the same adversities I had, actually he had faced worse things and survived them.   Our sex life was great. I thought he was the kind of man I had been looking for.  I thought we could grow together.  I thought we understood each other in a world that can be cruel to those who grew up as strangers in their own homes and feel isolated from people who have led more fortunate lives. It has taken a long time to see the truth about my mate.  Years have a way of revealing secrets.  He is a CHILD in a man’s body.  Look, all adults have their moments when they are childlike, and it’s not always a bad thing.  Sometimes we whine or want to be taken care of by our mate.  Sometimes we want comfort that is familiar from our past.  I think a certain amount of that is normal.  The man I thought I married is emotionally stuck at thirteen, the age at which his parents divorced.  He was an only child whose father was distant and uncaring. His mother was an alcoholic and control freak.  All of our parents are dead now, or I would have sent him home to mommy a long time ago.  He is in his forties. I have to leave this man if I am going to survive.  He drains the life out of me.  I am disabled and do not have enough money to live on.  I try to work but get too sick to continue.  My family, never supportive to begin with, wants nothing to do with me.  Because of my husband’s demeanor and my own shame in having trapped myself in this mess, I have no close friends.  He knows how I feel.  I tell him constantly.  He knows that when I find the FIRST opportunity to leave him, I am GONE. This has made his whiny-clingy-temper-tantrum-good boy behavior even worse.  I’ve had a separate bank account for years and tried to save enough money to leave him, though I never seem to save enough.  I am a careful spender.  The husband makes sure the bills get paid.  Any extra money is spent on things we actually use, mostly to keep me from accumulating enough funds to leave him (his words). He does not hit me or blatantly abuse me in cruel ways, again so that I cannot turn to agencies to help me leave.  I have tried everything in my area.  We don’t have any kids, thank God.  The only resources I have been able to find are homeless shelters.  When I called them, I heard things like "this is no place for a woman like you"… lice, bugs, violence, rape, you name it.  My last hope is to try to work for myself at home via the Internet.  I have explained to him that my ultimate goal is to develop enough income for an attorney and relocation.  This has INCREASED his childish behavior. This is my bed and I have to lie in it.  All I wonder is why a person would not want to leave behind a childhood that was miserable in the first place.   Why would someone think another person can make up for a past that cannot be made up for? I have a long way to go, but I have worked DAMNED HARD to put my childhood in the past and become a responsible adult.  I did not get married to take care of some mother’s son who wants to stay stuck.  What is there to gain by staying silly and childish?  This man annoys the hell out of everyone he meets because of his clinging, silly, childlike behavior.  Because he works hard, he is always employed, but gets fired all the time.  I hardly ever go out in public with him anymore.  I’m not interested in having an affair or getting into a relationship after I finally get a divorce.  I fear I am scarred for life.  Sometimes I think I want a MAN, and even think about finding one.  I doubt if I could take the chance on another relationship. I go to counseling.  The child tried counseling with me several times, but got terrified and ran away each time.  Now he refuses any sort of counseling, either with me or by himself.  He thinks the sole problem is that I "have turned mean" and "don’t love him anymore".  I _don’t_love him anymore and I have stopped doing anything close to the mothering he so desperately wants.  I’ve told him to go find someone who can do the job.  Obviously, he can’t. I am sorry this went on so long.  I feel so alone and tired.  This situation is making my health problems worse by the day.  I will keep trying until I find a way out of this situation.  Today, I am filled with loneliness and frustration.  I feel like I just had to tell someone, anyone.  I know I am not alone, there are people who chose mates who wanted a parent and not a lover and are stuck with them. 1 REALLY DUMB Chick Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Gogirl <gogir…@my-deja.com

writes: I didn’t say "permanently" dependent; but unfortunately, it is not very rare for people to become dependent on their therapist for extended periods of time, even years.

What do you mean by "dependent"?  Unable to make decisions without consulting the therapist?  Unable to go on vacations?  Unable to function without calling the therapist first?  What, exactly, are you talking about?  I am in therapy all the time (my choice) and I’m not dependent on my therapist except for her to listen to me when no one else wants to.

And I know individuals who get much better when they leave therapy.

Maybe they got better because of the therapy.

I am not talking about marriage counseling or couples in therapy, however.

Why are they exempt?

Unfortunately this particular profession is not very well regulated, and there are far too many lousy therapists out there.

Easy thing to say but you leave out the part about all the many good therapists out there. Karen

Response:

I didn’t say "permanently" dependent; but unfortunately, it is not very rare for people to become dependent on their therapist for extended periods of time, even years.  And I know individuals who get much better when they leave therapy.  I am not talking about marriage counseling or couples in therapy, however.  Unfortunately this particular profession is not very well regulated, and there are far too many lousy therapists out there. In article <7ktn6d$8p…@carroll.library.ucla.edu

,

  ro…@hhmi.ucla.edu (Karen Ronan) wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> It is rare for people to become permanently dependent > on their therapist. It’s far more common for them to abruptly > terminate therapy before there was time to make the gains that > they need. > Karen > Gogirl <gogir…@my-deja.com> writes: > > My concern about therapy/counseling (individual or couple) is when it becomes > > long-term, and the person or persons become dependent on the therapist or > > counselor.  The goal of any good therapy/counseling should be for the > > individual(s) to develop their own support system so that a professional is > > no longer needed.  There is a great book written by a clinical psychologist > > that addresses these types of issues.  It’s called "Beware the Talking Cure" > > by Terence Campbell, PhD.  I recommend it to anyone considering or in > > therapy.  It gives concrete guidance on what to watch out for and what to > > look for to find quality mental health care. > > In article <7kn3aa$ug…@nnrp1.deja.com

,

> >   1 Dumb Chick <1dumbch…@my-deja.com> wrote: > > > Thanks to all who have taken the time to reply.  You have been honest. > > > I have had to quell the urge to react strongly.  I’m 50 percent of this > > > equation.  Am I missing something?   Maybe I _have_ turned mean.  I > > > have to accept my role in this relationship. > > > In answer to the questions various posters have asked; I’ve tried hard > > > to not be a controlling person.  As I mentioned, my husband grew up > > > with a harsh and controlling mother.  I have tried to encourage him to > > > do things he has expressed interest in, whether I share those interests > > > or not.  One of the qualities I loved most in him was his > > > individuality.  Income?  When I am not employed, he is the primary > > > earner.   When I am employed, our income is usually equal.  We discuss > > > all major expenditures.   He does get frightened when I accumulate any > > > savings.  All bank records are equally accessible on our computer or > > > online, there are no financial secrets. > > > Severe depression and Post Traumatic Stress Disorder are my > > > disabilities. I hesitated to mention this, because I do not want to be > > > construed as a pity party on wheels.  I am not!  Depression is a > > > medical illness, and it appears to be hereditary. I have been in > > > treatment for many years.  My husband was diagnosed with major > > > depression (among other things) several years ago.  He has been treated > > > briefly in the past and taken medication.  The treatment came to a halt > > > whenever the person he was working with got too close to his history > > > and behavior.  I also have medical problems, one of which will require > > > surgery and an extended recovery period.  I’ve hesitated to go ahead > > > with the surgery until this relationship issue has been settled, > > > because it has sent my PTSD into overdrive. > > > I read the responses and took a hard look inside myself.  Gogirl, > > > especially, made me think.  I _may have become mean_.  Perhaps my > > > husband’s behavior is so irritating because I received almost no > > > nurturing in my past. My parents also divorced when I was very young, > > > and there’s a vast abuse history. My recovery has been centered on > > > forgiving and moving on.  Obviously, I haven’t.  I likely triggered > > > long-forgotten needs in my husband when I began to acknowledge and > > > accept my own.  His behavior makes me angry because it is behavior _I > > > was abused for and not permitted to indulge in!_   Withholding > > > affection due to resentment is a form of abuse.  I had to look in the > > > mirror today and see the very thing I wanted to never become.  I am an > > > _abuser_.  God, that hurts.  Growing up hurts sometimes. > > > I think I wanted a hero.  Instead, I got a human being. > > > I do not know how to handle his childlike needs, because I handle my > > > own poorly.  I cannot abide his temper tantrums, clinging and > > > indecisiveness, but we chose each other because we _understood_ each > > > other.   Why didn’t I seek someone else?   Because, in the beginning, > > > we were well-matched.  Perhaps we lost sight of it. > > > I’m willing to do give-and-take nurturing, even though I’m not good at > > > it.  But I do not like being leaned on or treated like a mother instead > > > of a mate. > > > I have to get some sleep, get up tomorrow and work on my new business > > > venture, and do some more hard soul-searching.  Again, thank you all > > > for your honesty, and further comments are welcome.   Perhaps I can > > > return the favor in the future.  :) > > > 1 Dumb Humble Chick > > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > > > Share what you know. Learn what you don’t. > > — > > Love is a decision. > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > > Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

– Love is a decision. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

It is rare for people to become permanently dependent on their therapist. It’s far more common for them to abruptly terminate therapy before there was time to make the gains that they need. Karen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Gogirl <gogir…@my-deja.com

writes: My concern about therapy/counseling (individual or couple) is when it becomes long-term, and the person or persons become dependent on the therapist or counselor.  The goal of any good therapy/counseling should be for the individual(s) to develop their own support system so that a professional is no longer needed.  There is a great book written by a clinical psychologist that addresses these types of issues.  It’s called "Beware the Talking Cure" by Terence Campbell, PhD.  I recommend it to anyone considering or in therapy.  It gives concrete guidance on what to watch out for and what to look for to find quality mental health care. In article <7kn3aa$ug…@nnrp1.deja.com,   1 Dumb Chick <1dumbch…@my-deja.com wrote: Thanks to all who have taken the time to reply.  You have been honest. I have had to quell the urge to react strongly.  I’m 50 percent of this equation.  Am I missing something?   Maybe I _have_ turned mean.  I have to accept my role in this relationship. In answer to the questions various posters have asked; I’ve tried hard to not be a controlling person.  As I mentioned, my husband grew up with a harsh and controlling mother.  I have tried to encourage him to do things he has expressed interest in, whether I share those interests or not.  One of the qualities I loved most in him was his individuality.  Income?  When I am not employed, he is the primary earner.   When I am employed, our income is usually equal.  We discuss all major expenditures.   He does get frightened when I accumulate any savings.  All bank records are equally accessible on our computer or online, there are no financial secrets. Severe depression and Post Traumatic Stress Disorder are my disabilities. I hesitated to mention this, because I do not want to be construed as a pity party on wheels.  I am not!  Depression is a medical illness, and it appears to be hereditary. I have been in treatment for many years.  My husband was diagnosed with major depression (among other things) several years ago.  He has been treated briefly in the past and taken medication.  The treatment came to a halt whenever the person he was working with got too close to his history and behavior.  I also have medical problems, one of which will require surgery and an extended recovery period.  I’ve hesitated to go ahead with the surgery until this relationship issue has been settled, because it has sent my PTSD into overdrive. I read the responses and took a hard look inside myself.  Gogirl, especially, made me think.  I _may have become mean_.  Perhaps my husband’s behavior is so irritating because I received almost no nurturing in my past. My parents also divorced when I was very young, and there’s a vast abuse history. My recovery has been centered on forgiving and moving on.  Obviously, I haven’t.  I likely triggered long-forgotten needs in my husband when I began to acknowledge and accept my own.  His behavior makes me angry because it is behavior _I was abused for and not permitted to indulge in!_   Withholding affection due to resentment is a form of abuse.  I had to look in the mirror today and see the very thing I wanted to never become.  I am an _abuser_.  God, that hurts.  Growing up hurts sometimes. I think I wanted a hero.  Instead, I got a human being. I do not know how to handle his childlike needs, because I handle my own poorly.  I cannot abide his temper tantrums, clinging and indecisiveness, but we chose each other because we _understood_ each other.   Why didn’t I seek someone else?   Because, in the beginning, we were well-matched.  Perhaps we lost sight of it. I’m willing to do give-and-take nurturing, even though I’m not good at it.  But I do not like being leaned on or treated like a mother instead of a mate. I have to get some sleep, get up tomorrow and work on my new business venture, and do some more hard soul-searching.  Again, thank you all for your honesty, and further comments are welcome.   Perhaps I can return the favor in the future.  :) 1 Dumb Humble Chick Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don’t. — Love is a decision. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Seek and you shall find, so goes the phrase… Its sounds like you are on a journey of self discovery. One that brings many sad and happy thoughts into exsistance. It is not a time to judge the events, but to reflect and grow from them. Your relationship seems co-dependent, although your husband seems more dependent than yourself. Compliment relationships only work for a time, because are needs and wants change constantly and our partners rarely change in the same direction. They always look like they are unsupportive, yet they support personal growth, because it forces you to look at your own neuroses more clearly. To some a good relationship is one where another person behaves the way we want them to and never pushs any of our buttons. But this only succeeds to hold our personal growth back. Its not our job to look for love, but to look at what holds us back from recieving it. Remembering that you will be given situations that you will always be able to deal with and that you are whole as you are. You don’t need anyone to make you complete…you just need to discover that you are. Have fun with your journey… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -1 Dumb Chick wrote:

Thanks to all who have taken the time to reply.  You have been honest. I have had to quell the urge to react strongly.  I’m 50 percent of this equation.  Am I missing something?   Maybe I _have_ turned mean.  I have to accept my role in this relationship. In answer to the questions various posters have asked; I’ve tried hard to not be a controlling person.  As I mentioned, my husband grew up with a harsh and controlling mother.  I have tried to encourage him to do things he has expressed interest in, whether I share those interests or not.  One of the qualities I loved most in him was his individuality.  Income?  When I am not employed, he is the primary earner.   When I am employed, our income is usually equal.  We discuss all major expenditures.   He does get frightened when I accumulate any savings.  All bank records are equally accessible on our computer or online, there are no financial secrets. Severe depression and Post Traumatic Stress Disorder are my disabilities. I hesitated to mention this, because I do not want to be construed as a pity party on wheels.  I am not!  Depression is a medical illness, and it appears to be hereditary. I have been in treatment for many years.  My husband was diagnosed with major depression (among other things) several years ago.  He has been treated briefly in the past and taken medication.  The treatment came to a halt whenever the person he was working with got too close to his history and behavior.  I also have medical problems, one of which will require surgery and an extended recovery period.  I’ve hesitated to go ahead with the surgery until this relationship issue has been settled, because it has sent my PTSD into overdrive. I read the responses and took a hard look inside myself.  Gogirl, especially, made me think.  I _may have become mean_.  Perhaps my husband’s behavior is so irritating because I received almost no nurturing in my past. My parents also divorced when I was very young, and there’s a vast abuse history. My recovery has been centered on forgiving and moving on.  Obviously, I haven’t.  I likely triggered long-forgotten needs in my husband when I began to acknowledge and accept my own.  His behavior makes me angry because it is behavior _I was abused for and not permitted to indulge in!_   Withholding affection due to resentment is a form of abuse.  I had to look in the mirror today and see the very thing I wanted to never become.  I am an _abuser_.  God, that hurts.  Growing up hurts sometimes. I think I wanted a hero.  Instead, I got a human being. I do not know how to handle his childlike needs, because I handle my own poorly.  I cannot abide his temper tantrums, clinging and indecisiveness, but we chose each other because we _understood_ each other.   Why didn’t I seek someone else?   Because, in the beginning, we were well-matched.  Perhaps we lost sight of it. I’m willing to do give-and-take nurturing, even though I’m not good at it.  But I do not like being leaned on or treated like a mother instead of a mate. I have to get some sleep, get up tomorrow and work on my new business venture, and do some more hard soul-searching.  Again, thank you all for your honesty, and further comments are welcome.   Perhaps I can return the favor in the future.  :) 1 Dumb Humble Chick Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

I read your post twice. You don’t sound dumb to me. I think you sounded ingtelligent and open and responsible. I was impressed by what you wrote, how you expressed it, and what you were willing to do even tho it hurt to change. That shows strength of character to me. I hope things work out well for you. Arnie In article <7kn3aa$ug…@nnrp1.deja.com

, 1 Dumb Chick

<1dumbch…@my-deja.com

wrote: Thanks to all who have taken the time to reply.  You have been honest. I have had to quell the urge to react strongly.  I’m 50 percent of this equation.  Am I missing something?   Maybe I _have_ turned mean.  I have to accept my role in this relationship. snip

— Perseverance is not a long race. It is many short races one after another.

Response:

You have already given back to me by letting me know that something I said may have made a positive difference for you.  Thanks for letting me know. What Karen says about a third person possibly being able to be the "parent" for you and your husband right now makes sense, as long as it’s a temporary situation on the way to the two of you being able to support each other. It’s true I think that in most successful marriages, when one partner needs nurturing, the other nurtures; and then the roles reverse.  When a situation arises likes yours where both partners need to be nurtured simultaneously, problems can arise (perhaps this is why the death of a child often results in divorce?). My concern about therapy/counseling (individual or couple) is when it becomes long-term, and the person or persons become dependent on the therapist or counselor.  The goal of any good therapy/counseling should be for the individual(s) to develop their own support system so that a professional is no longer needed.  There is a great book written by a clinical psychologist that addresses these types of issues.  It’s called "Beware the Talking Cure" by Terence Campbell, PhD.  I recommend it to anyone considering or in therapy.  It gives concrete guidance on what to watch out for and what to look for to find quality mental health care. In article <7kn3aa$ug…@nnrp1.deja.com

,

  1 Dumb Chick <1dumbch…@my-deja.com

wrote:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Thanks to all who have taken the time to reply.  You have been honest. I have had to quell the urge to react strongly.  I’m 50 percent of this equation.  Am I missing something?   Maybe I _have_ turned mean.  I have to accept my role in this relationship. In answer to the questions various posters have asked; I’ve tried hard to not be a controlling person.  As I mentioned, my husband grew up with a harsh and controlling mother.  I have tried to encourage him to do things he has expressed interest in, whether I share those interests or not.  One of the qualities I loved most in him was his individuality.  Income?  When I am not employed, he is the primary earner.   When I am employed, our income is usually equal.  We discuss all major expenditures.   He does get frightened when I accumulate any savings.  All bank records are equally accessible on our computer or online, there are no financial secrets. Severe depression and Post Traumatic Stress Disorder are my disabilities. I hesitated to mention this, because I do not want to be construed as a pity party on wheels.  I am not!  Depression is a medical illness, and it appears to be hereditary. I have been in treatment for many years.  My husband was diagnosed with major depression (among other things) several years ago.  He has been treated briefly in the past and taken medication.  The treatment came to a halt whenever the person he was working with got too close to his history and behavior.  I also have medical problems, one of which will require surgery and an extended recovery period.  I’ve hesitated to go ahead with the surgery until this relationship issue has been settled, because it has sent my PTSD into overdrive. I read the responses and took a hard look inside myself.  Gogirl, especially, made me think.  I _may have become mean_.  Perhaps my husband’s behavior is so irritating because I received almost no nurturing in my past. My parents also divorced when I was very young, and there’s a vast abuse history. My recovery has been centered on forgiving and moving on.  Obviously, I haven’t.  I likely triggered long-forgotten needs in my husband when I began to acknowledge and accept my own.  His behavior makes me angry because it is behavior _I was abused for and not permitted to indulge in!_   Withholding affection due to resentment is a form of abuse.  I had to look in the mirror today and see the very thing I wanted to never become.  I am an _abuser_.  God, that hurts.  Growing up hurts sometimes. I think I wanted a hero.  Instead, I got a human being. I do not know how to handle his childlike needs, because I handle my own poorly.  I cannot abide his temper tantrums, clinging and indecisiveness, but we chose each other because we _understood_ each other.   Why didn’t I seek someone else?   Because, in the beginning, we were well-matched.  Perhaps we lost sight of it. I’m willing to do give-and-take nurturing, even though I’m not good at it.  But I do not like being leaned on or treated like a mother instead of a mate. I have to get some sleep, get up tomorrow and work on my new business venture, and do some more hard soul-searching.  Again, thank you all for your honesty, and further comments are welcome.   Perhaps I can return the favor in the future.  :) 1 Dumb Humble Chick Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

— Love is a decision. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

From: ro…@hhmi.ucla.edu (Karen Ronan) Let me know if this makes any sense to you.

It makes a lot of sense to me.  You are a wise person Karen.  You add a lot to this group. ~~~~Don’t spit into the well–you might drink from it later.~~~

Response:

Oceanmomma, you took the words right out of my mouth!  (Or should that be plucked them from my keyboard?)  I was going to suggest a name change, too – this person is certainly no "dumb chick."   Fluffy Rain – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Oceanmomma wrote:

From: 1 Dumb Chick Thanks to all who have taken the time to reply.  You have been honest. I have had to quell the urge to react strongly.  I’m 50 percent of this equation.  Am I missing something?   Maybe I _have_ turned mean.  I have to accept my role in this relationship. I have a lot of admiration for you.  You are able to listen to and hear what others are saying.  You are willing to look at yourself and not place all of the blame elsewhere.  You sound strong to me…and wise.  I have a favor to ask of you.  Would you change your name to 1smartchick?  I think it would be a postive change for you…rather than a putdown.  You deserve happiness…as does your husband.  Hopefully it can be together.  If not, you both still deserve happiness.  You do have some tough work ahead of you but you sound as if you are up for the challenge.  My best to you

Response:

instead of wasting everyone’s time by trying to change him?

If he is really as childish as she says he is, He will probably start expecting her to literally change him IE he will begin to start wearing depends.  LOL I am tired.   Laura   — Wicked Witch of the Net — You’re the cilantro in my salsa, The Cuban in my cigar, the sugar in my tea and the Oompa in my Loompa — Marvelous Momma to Magnificent Melissa {Age 4.5} And Awesome AJ {Born March 18 1999}

Response:

Read "Aphrodite’s Daughters" by Jalaja Bonheim or better still leave it around waiting for him to read it. It’s described as Womens Sexual Stories and the Journey of the Soul. It is centred around the latter more. You’ve lost that connectivity, I’m not an expert but you have to connect, that is what relationships are about. I play a lot of social volleyball. Bad knees? doesn’t sound right to me. I had a bad back [old age and too much volleyball] but after 4 days of solid rest, it came right, now I’m OK, and still playing. Life is about spirituality, even for those who don’t believe in it. Be yourself, and enjoy being who you are. Harvey

Response:

From: 1 Dumb Chick Thanks to all who have taken the time to reply.  You have been honest. I have had to quell the urge to react strongly.  I’m 50 percent of this equation.  Am I missing something?   Maybe I _have_ turned mean.  I have to accept my role in this relationship.

I have a lot of admiration for you.  You are able to listen to and hear what others are saying.  You are willing to look at yourself and not place all of the blame elsewhere.  You sound strong to me…and wise.  I have a favor to ask of you.  Would you change your name to 1smartchick?  I think it would be a postive change for you…rather than a putdown.  You deserve happiness…as does your husband.  Hopefully it can be together.  If not, you both still deserve happiness.  You do have some tough work ahead of you but you sound as if you are up for the challenge.  My best to you ~~~~Don’t spit into the well–you might drink from it later.~~~

Response:

Hi, Once I brought our couples therapist a photograph I downloaded from the internet portraying two American Indian babies, in cradleboards, both crying.  I thought it was a striking photo and perhaps even a cute photo, that she would like.  She was struck by it but not in the way I expected. She thought it seemed to represent me and my husband who sometimes feel like these babies with no adult around. There are times (or a majority of time) when a couple regresses into a childlike, dependent state, and no one is able to function as the "parent" at that moment, or else one person is appointed the "parent" (which is too much, each has to take that role sometimes), then, imho, the marriage needs a "holding environment" and a "container" where _someone_ takes on the parental role, at least temporarily, and holds all the bad feelings, rage and resentment until the marriage can handle it.  That person is a good therapist. Let me know if this makes any sense to you. Karen 1 Dumb Chick <1dumbch…@my-deja.com

writes:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Thanks to all who have taken the time to reply.  You have been honest. I have had to quell the urge to react strongly.  I’m 50 percent of this equation.  Am I missing something?   Maybe I _have_ turned mean.  I have to accept my role in this relationship. In answer to the questions various posters have asked; I’ve tried hard to not be a controlling person.  As I mentioned, my husband grew up with a harsh and controlling mother.  I have tried to encourage him to do things he has expressed interest in, whether I share those interests or not.  One of the qualities I loved most in him was his individuality.  Income?  When I am not employed, he is the primary earner.   When I am employed, our income is usually equal.  We discuss all major expenditures.   He does get frightened when I accumulate any savings.  All bank records are equally accessible on our computer or online, there are no financial secrets. Severe depression and Post Traumatic Stress Disorder are my disabilities. I hesitated to mention this, because I do not want to be construed as a pity party on wheels.  I am not!  Depression is a medical illness, and it appears to be hereditary. I have been in treatment for many years.  My husband was diagnosed with major depression (among other things) several years ago.  He has been treated briefly in the past and taken medication.  The treatment came to a halt whenever the person he was working with got too close to his history and behavior.  I also have medical problems, one of which will require surgery and an extended recovery period.  I’ve hesitated to go ahead with the surgery until this relationship issue has been settled, because it has sent my PTSD into overdrive. I read the responses and took a hard look inside myself.  Gogirl, especially, made me think.  I _may have become mean_.  Perhaps my husband’s behavior is so irritating because I received almost no nurturing in my past. My parents also divorced when I was very young, and there’s a vast abuse history. My recovery has been centered on forgiving and moving on.  Obviously, I haven’t.  I likely triggered long-forgotten needs in my husband when I began to acknowledge and accept my own.  His behavior makes me angry because it is behavior _I was abused for and not permitted to indulge in!_   Withholding affection due to resentment is a form of abuse.  I had to look in the mirror today and see the very thing I wanted to never become.  I am an _abuser_.  God, that hurts.  Growing up hurts sometimes. I think I wanted a hero.  Instead, I got a human being. I do not know how to handle his childlike needs, because I handle my own poorly.  I cannot abide his temper tantrums, clinging and indecisiveness, but we chose each other because we _understood_ each other.   Why didn’t I seek someone else?   Because, in the beginning, we were well-matched.  Perhaps we lost sight of it. I’m willing to do give-and-take nurturing, even though I’m not good at it.  But I do not like being leaned on or treated like a mother instead of a mate. I have to get some sleep, get up tomorrow and work on my new business venture, and do some more hard soul-searching.  Again, thank you all for your honesty, and further comments are welcome.   Perhaps I can return the favor in the future.  :) 1 Dumb Humble Chick Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Thanks to all who have taken the time to reply.  You have been honest. I have had to quell the urge to react strongly.  I’m 50 percent of this equation.  Am I missing something?   Maybe I _have_ turned mean.  I have to accept my role in this relationship. In answer to the questions various posters have asked; I’ve tried hard to not be a controlling person.  As I mentioned, my husband grew up with a harsh and controlling mother.  I have tried to encourage him to do things he has expressed interest in, whether I share those interests or not.  One of the qualities I loved most in him was his individuality.  Income?  When I am not employed, he is the primary earner.   When I am employed, our income is usually equal.  We discuss all major expenditures.   He does get frightened when I accumulate any savings.  All bank records are equally accessible on our computer or online, there are no financial secrets. Severe depression and Post Traumatic Stress Disorder are my disabilities. I hesitated to mention this, because I do not want to be construed as a pity party on wheels.  I am not!  Depression is a medical illness, and it appears to be hereditary. I have been in treatment for many years.  My husband was diagnosed with major depression (among other things) several years ago.  He has been treated briefly in the past and taken medication.  The treatment came to a halt whenever the person he was working with got too close to his history and behavior.  I also have medical problems, one of which will require surgery and an extended recovery period.  I’ve hesitated to go ahead with the surgery until this relationship issue has been settled, because it has sent my PTSD into overdrive. I read the responses and took a hard look inside myself.  Gogirl, especially, made me think.  I _may have become mean_.  Perhaps my husband’s behavior is so irritating because I received almost no nurturing in my past. My parents also divorced when I was very young, and there’s a vast abuse history. My recovery has been centered on forgiving and moving on.  Obviously, I haven’t.  I likely triggered long-forgotten needs in my husband when I began to acknowledge and accept my own.  His behavior makes me angry because it is behavior _I was abused for and not permitted to indulge in!_   Withholding affection due to resentment is a form of abuse.  I had to look in the mirror today and see the very thing I wanted to never become.  I am an _abuser_.  God, that hurts.  Growing up hurts sometimes. I think I wanted a hero.  Instead, I got a human being. I do not know how to handle his childlike needs, because I handle my own poorly.  I cannot abide his temper tantrums, clinging and indecisiveness, but we chose each other because we _understood_ each other.   Why didn’t I seek someone else?   Because, in the beginning, we were well-matched.  Perhaps we lost sight of it. I’m willing to do give-and-take nurturing, even though I’m not good at it.  But I do not like being leaned on or treated like a mother instead of a mate. I have to get some sleep, get up tomorrow and work on my new business venture, and do some more hard soul-searching.  Again, thank you all for your honesty, and further comments are welcome.   Perhaps I can return the favor in the future.  :) 1 Dumb Humble Chick Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

On Mon, 21 Jun 1999 20:57:11 GMT, 1 Dumb Chick <1dumbch…@my-deja.com

wrote: <snip

>I have health and emotional problems.  He has health and >emotional problems.  Two years ago, I became quite ill and had to work >hard to recover.  My efforts have shown success.  It appears the >childish behavior escalated as my recovery progressed.  During the >recovery, I tried to be careful not to ignore him or our relationship. >I tried to include him in my healing process. I set aside time for >him.

Apparently you sought help for your emotional problems; did he ever acknowledge his difficulties or seek help for those problems?  You may have grown while he stayed the same; that could be threatening enough for him to cause the clingy, indecisive behavor of which you complain.   Have either of you read Angry Men, Passive Men … people often laugh at the men’s movement but he would fit onto the pages of that book in various categories.  Unless he wants to change and is willing to work at it, you are not going to be satisfied with the relationship you now have Has he been to the doctor to see if there is a medical reason for his behavior … he may be clinically depressed and need medication if no other cause is found.   Your original post listed quite a nice set of attractive attributes for him; something has caused him to withdraw. If he can get hold of himself, then the two of you may want to consider marriage counseling but in his current state, that might be a waste of time and money. Floridanewbie

Response:

I agree with Melissa that your husband needs your loving kindness, or you could say I agree with your husband that you have become mean.  Is it possible your own disability is increasing your need to be nurtured; therefore his needs to be nurtured now  make you angry and mean?  While I realize our childhoods certainly play a part in who  we are, I do not believe they are the be-all and end-all to all our issues and problems. And if "growing" in recovery means a formerly happy marriage  falls apart, I question the value of such "recovery." In article <929987204.6…@www.remarq.com

,

  melissa <missie.john…@eudoramail.com

wrote:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Just some random thoughts here… Was your husband always whining and child-like?  If not, when did it start?  Can you think of anything that could have triggered it?  Maybe when the ’sparks’ went out?  When life became routine?  It sounds like he’s getting worse now because he’s afraid of abandonment (which he knows is forthcoming).  He felt abandoned by his parents when they got divorced. He needs to learn to deal with his feelings, and counselling is the best way.  Even more, he needs somebody to love him and be there for him.  You need to really try to be that somebody right now.  You don’t love him because of his childish behavior, he’s behaving childishly because you don’t love him anymore.  Give it a try, try to get him some help and rekindle your love for him.  You made vows, for better or for worse.  You need to give it your best shot before leaving.  Try loving him again, and treating him with warmth and kindness.  You may be surprised at the man you see. Good luck, Melissa **** Posted from RemarQ – http://www.remarq.com – Discussions Start Here ™ ****

— Love is a decision. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

In article <7klsj2$om…@slave1.aa.net

,

"Binky Barnes" <binkybar…@removeski.cheerful.com

wrote: It is intensely difficult to assess your situation unless you describe a bit more what you mean when you say "childish behavior".

Sure.  He is very clinging and insecure.  He resists making decisions on his own, though he is quite capable.  He’s always "asking my permission" to do things.  I’ve told him I’m his wife, not his boss, he dosen’t need my "permission" to do anything!  When I am employed, he pouts or throws temper tantrums when I don’t buy him "little gifts", especially things like junk food (cookies, sweets, etc..)  I’ve tried to do spontaneous things like taking him out to dinner, or picking up a little something in a store that I see that he might like.  If I _don’t_ do this constantly, I am accused of "selfishness". Most guys I’ve known like to have time with other guys or do "guy stuff" — things that don’t often involve women.  I encourage him to do "guy things" that don’t include me, but he dosen’t.  He never wants to socialize without me.  He dosen’t watch sports on TV at all unless I am.  He used to play football and hockey, bowl and practice martial arts, so I know he likes sports.  He has a back injury, so he can’t do many sports any more, though we both enjoy bicycling.  We used to play volleyball together, but I have bad knees and can’t play anymore.  I’ve told him to find games without me; he won’t.  I’ve encouraged him to resume martial arts training; he won’t.  I’ve asked if there is anything he wants to do.  He gives vague answers like "making friends", but won’t because "we don’t have enough money".  Since when does money matter in friendships?  People like you or they don’t. I don’t think it’s healthy for a couple to spend every moment together.  He tries to make his own friends on occasion, then gives up.  When I try to make freinds, he buts in and scares the friends away.  If I talk on the phone to anyone, I actually have to take the (cordless) phone outside because he interrupts my phone calls.  He calls home two or three times a day.  He works TWO BLOCKS AWAY and comes home for lunch every day!  He wants 100 percent of my attention.

I have found that in some situations where women complain about their husband’s "childishness", that they are themselves coming from a position of over-maternalism, and I hear some of that in your post.

I attempted to be a nurturing partner but not a smothering one.  We used to do cutesy things like my bathing him or his shaving my legs.  I know his mother smothered him, so I always gave him his own space.  We divided up household chores according to each other’s skills.  I’m better at cleaning and actually enjoy it, but he would vacuum and do laundry if housework stacked up.  I am a good cook, but he is a _great_ one.  He used to do most of the cooking because he WANTED to.  I would help him prepare food if he asked.  Now he eats junk food if I don’t cook, or I have to practically beg him to cook once in a while.  When he cooks, he literally HOVERS over the table, constantly probing for praise of the meal.  In the past, my husband gave as much nurturing to me as I to him.  Nurturing is a skill I am only fair at and worked hard to develop since we’ve been together.  Now he sits at the computer and tries to get me to wait on him hand and foot.

Can you elaborate the problem without the added drama (contacting homeless shelters, etc.)?

<skipping drama

People grow apart.  I believe it’s happened to us.  It started going downhill about three years ago.  We had a home business in the computer industry that we gave up on due to competition and being cheated by clients.  I have health and emotional problems.  He has health and emotional problems.  Two years ago, I became quite ill and had to work hard to recover.  My efforts have shown success.  It appears the childish behavior escalated as my recovery progressed.  During the recovery, I tried to be careful not to ignore him or our relationship. I tried to include him in my healing process. I set aside time for him. I am not alone in my observations.  Other people confront him with his childish behavior.  All he does is scream "F*** You" and run away. I love men.  My definition of a man is a confident, strong human being who uses his male attributes as positive traits.  I believe men and women have different assets, and they should complement one another. I’m so angry and overburdened by his clinging, I am ready to give up. Further questions will be answered to the best of my ability.  No email, please, I have to keep this passworded and private. 1 Dumb Chick Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Igor, The original poster mentioned that she was disabled.  She didn’t mention any details, but perhaps that affects her ability to work. Melissa **** Posted from RemarQ – http://www.remarq.com – Discussions Start Here ™ ****

Response:

What exactly is he doing that is so childish? What does he say? Give worst examples if possible. (you dont have to) Who is the main breadwinner? How long have you been going to therapy? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -1 Dumb Chick wrote:

 He is a CHILD in a man’s body. What is there to gain by staying silly and childish?

Response:

I met a man over a decade ago.  It seemed like we fell in love.  We got married.  I knew he had problems because he came from a dysfunctional family, but so what, so did I.  In spite of his past, he seemed strong and capable.  He is brillant.  He was loyal, hardworking and caring. He had terrible relationships before and stated that he was ready to settle with one woman who he could trust.   We had many common interests and the same sense of humor about life.  He had faced the same adversities I had, actually he had faced worse things and survived them.   Our sex life was great. I thought he was the kind of man I had been looking for.  I thought we could grow together.  I thought we understood each other in a world that can be cruel to those who grew up as strangers in their own homes and feel isolated from people who have led more fortunate lives. It has taken a long time to see the truth about my mate.  Years have a way of revealing secrets.  He is a CHILD in a man’s body.  Look, all adults have their moments when they are childlike, and it’s not always a bad thing.  Sometimes we whine or want to be taken care of by our mate.  Sometimes we want comfort that is familiar from our past.  I think a certain amount of that is normal.  The man I thought I married is emotionally stuck at thirteen, the age at which his parents divorced.  He was an only child whose father was distant and uncaring. His mother was an alcoholic and control freak.  All of our parents are dead now, or I would have sent him home to mommy a long time ago.  He is in his forties. I have to leave this man if I am going to survive.  He drains the life out of me.  I am disabled and do not have enough money to live on.  I try to work but get too sick to continue.  My family, never supportive to begin with, wants nothing to do with me.  Because of my husband’s demeanor and my own shame in having trapped myself in this mess, I have no close friends.  He knows how I feel.  I tell him constantly.  He knows that when I find the FIRST opportunity to leave him, I am GONE. This has made his whiny-clingy-temper-tantrum-good boy behavior even worse.  I’ve had a separate bank account for years and tried to save enough money to leave him, though I never seem to save enough.  I am a careful spender.  The husband makes sure the bills get paid.  Any extra money is spent on things we actually use, mostly to keep me from accumulating enough funds to leave him (his words). He does not hit me or blatantly abuse me in cruel ways, again so that I cannot turn to agencies to help me leave.  I have tried everything in my area.  We don’t have any kids, thank God.  The only resources I have been able to find are homeless shelters.  When I called them, I heard things like "this is no place for a woman like you"… lice, bugs, violence, rape, you name it.  My last hope is to try to work for myself at home via the Internet.  I have explained to him that my ultimate goal is to develop enough income for an attorney and relocation.  This has INCREASED his childish behavior. This is my bed and I have to lie in it.  All I wonder is why a person would not want to leave behind a childhood that was miserable in the first place.   Why would someone think another person can make up for a past that cannot be made up for? I have a long way to go, but I have worked DAMNED HARD to put my childhood in the past and become a responsible adult.  I did not get married to take care of some mother’s son who wants to stay stuck.  What is there to gain by staying silly and childish?  This man annoys the hell out of everyone he meets because of his clinging, silly, childlike behavior.  Because he works hard, he is always employed, but gets fired all the time.  I hardly ever go out in public with him anymore.  I’m not interested in having an affair or getting into a relationship after I finally get a divorce.  I fear I am scarred for life.  Sometimes I think I want a MAN, and even think about finding one.  I doubt if I could take the chance on another relationship. I go to counseling.  The child tried counseling with me several times, but got terrified and ran away each time.  Now he refuses any sort of counseling, either with me or by himself.  He thinks the sole problem is that I "have turned mean" and "don’t love him anymore".  I _don’t_love him anymore and I have stopped doing anything close to the mothering he so desperately wants.  I’ve told him to go find someone who can do the job.  Obviously, he can’t. I am sorry this went on so long.  I feel so alone and tired.  This situation is making my health problems worse by the day.  I will keep trying until I find a way out of this situation.  Today, I am filled with loneliness and frustration.  I feel like I just had to tell someone, anyone.  I know I am not alone, there are people who chose mates who wanted a parent and not a lover and are stuck with them. 1 REALLY DUMB Chick Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

It is intensely difficult to assess your situation unless you describe a bit more what you mean when you say "childish behavior". I have found that in some situations where women complain about their husband’s "childishness", that they are themselves coming from a position of over-maternalism, and I hear some of that in your post. Can you elaborate the problem without the added drama (contacting homeless shelters, etc.)? -Jeff

Response:

Just some random thoughts here… Was your husband always whining and child-like?  If not, when did it start?  Can you think of anything that could have triggered it?  Maybe when the ’sparks’ went out?  When life became routine?  It sounds like he’s getting worse now because he’s afraid of abandonment (which he knows is forthcoming).  He felt abandoned by his parents when they got divorced. He needs to learn to deal with his feelings, and counselling is the best way.  Even more, he needs somebody to love him and be there for him.  You need to really try to be that somebody right now.  You don’t love him because of his childish behavior, he’s behaving childishly because you don’t love him anymore.  Give it a try, try to get him some help and rekindle your love for him.  You made vows, for better or for worse.  You need to give it your best shot before leaving.  Try loving him again, and treating him with warmth and kindness.  You may be surprised at the man you see. Good luck, Melissa **** Posted from RemarQ – http://www.remarq.com – Discussions Start Here ™ ****

Response:

In article <7klncd$do…@nnrp1.deja.com

,

  1 Dumb Chick <1dumbch…@my-deja.com

wrote: I am sorry this went on so long.  I feel so alone and tired.  This situation is making my health problems worse by the day.  I will keep trying until I find a way out of this situation.  Today, I am filled with loneliness and frustration.  I feel like I just had to tell someone, anyone.  I know I am not alone, there are people who chose mates who wanted a parent and not a lover and are stuck with them.

Chick, You must get out of this situation.  You know that already.  One thing to do is to stop telling your husband about your plans to leave. Obviously, it makes his behavior worse when you do that.  Here are a couple of suggestions: 1. Sell off anything you own that is worth money (engagement and wedding rings come to mind, if they have any value) to make extra money.  If your husband asks where certain household items went, explain that you are trying to declutter and that you have donated them. 2. Call the state bar and explain that you need a divorce attorney but you do not have a lot of money.  If you can’t find the state bar in the phone book, call information and ask for "New York State Bar" or whatever state you are in. Just because you are disabled and you don’t have a lot of money doesn’t mean you can’t get out of this relationship.  I wish you the best of luck and please keep posting.  Let us know what is going on.  We are here for you! Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Question:

I wear a little makeup, usually lipstick and a little pencil under the eyes. I *love* to get dressed up for occasions and I like to paint my toenails in the summer. My favorite girly thing is lacey loungerie! What’s with Victorias Secret anyway. I used to buy something there practically once a week but they’ve gotten so expensive I don’t even bother venturing into all that pinkness anymore. lite

Response:

numbat_ex…@hotmail.com (Jenni) wrote:

How often do you dress for your wife, Gary? Just to see what kind of spark it ignites, I mean… Jenni it’s a goose & gander thing, y’see

I wear the stuff she picks out for me.  Does that count. Gary – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

My wife goes casual most of the time, and that’s okay. But when she dresses up – makeup, jewelry, sexy clothes – then she’s spectacular. What’s the matter with once in a while dressing for your husband – wearing what you know turns him on and gets him going. I know. He always says you look just fine and he wouldn’t have you any other way – but give it a try and see what kind of sparks it ignites. Gary

Response:

I like CK One

try Realities, Sunflowers, Escape, and a body lotion called Pareberry or Pear Bear or something. All smell nice:)

Response:

I’m allergic to Sunflowers and Escape… the others I haven’t heard of.   I don’t like lotion though   Tamara – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Bobodean said… I like CK One try Realities, Sunflowers, Escape, and a body lotion called Pareberry or Pear Bear or something. All smell nice:)

Response:

If you like fresh out of the shower smells, try Jessica McClintock. My fave. Nancy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Fri, 28 May 1999 22:01:12 -0400, bo…@mindspring.com (TYounger) wrote:

I like CK One… it smells fresh to me.. soapy, showery.  I also have smelled April Fields, and it seems good too.. nice and light. Tamara Kimberlee said… Makeup: Mascara & Lipstick. Perfume…all kinds, but in small bottles.  And I HATE perfumes that you can smell 5 minutes after someone’s left the room.  Manufacturers *waaaay* overdo it nowadays…most of the *expensive* stuff smells like cheap stuff.  What’s with that? My favorites: Coco by Chanel, Parfum by Aveda & White Shoulders.   TYounger wrote: Just curious if I’m in the vast minority here. I don’t wear jewelry much – used to wear two pair of small studs, until I lost one of them I don’t like makeup a lot of the time I have one bottle of perfume which is so neutral most people don’t even notice it, and I’ve had it for four years, and it’s only half empty I don’t use curling irons or blow dryers… I keep seeing these women, or passing them and they *reek* of perfume, and have a lot of makeup and jewelry on.  They do look good, although I’ve almost passed out from perfume fumes a couple of times. Then, last night, they had the Miss Universe thing, and I think one of the prizes was like $5000 worth of perfume.  And I just though "geez" I find more and more that I must be pretty atypical these days.  Any thoughts? Tamara

Response:

In article <374f54f6.13710…@news.mindspring.com

, gwal…@mindspring.com

wrote:

numbat_ex…@hotmail.com (Jenni) wrote: How often do you dress for your wife, Gary? Just to see what kind of spark it ignites, I mean… Jenni it’s a goose & gander thing, y’see I wear the stuff she picks out for me.  Does that count. Gary

Yeah, that’ll do. (Besides, you made me laugh, and today that counts for a lot.) Jenni

Response:

How often do you dress for your wife, Gary? Just to see what kind of spark it ignites, I mean… Jenni it’s a goose & gander thing, y’see – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

My wife goes casual most of the time, and that’s okay. But when she dresses up – makeup, jewelry, sexy clothes – then she’s spectacular. What’s the matter with once in a while dressing for your husband – wearing what you know turns him on and gets him going. I know. He always says you look just fine and he wouldn’t have you any other way – but give it a try and see what kind of sparks it ignites. Gary

Response:

Makeup: Mascara & Lipstick. Perfume…all kinds, but in small bottles.  And I HATE perfumes that you can smell 5 minutes after someone’s left the room.  Manufacturers *waaaay* overdo it nowadays…most of the *expensive* stuff smells like cheap stuff.  What’s with that? My favorites: Coco by Chanel, Parfum by Aveda & White Shoulders.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -TYounger wrote:

Just curious if I’m in the vast minority here. I don’t wear jewelry much – used to wear two pair of small studs, until I lost one of them I don’t like makeup a lot of the time I have one bottle of perfume which is so neutral most people don’t even notice it, and I’ve had it for four years, and it’s only half empty I don’t use curling irons or blow dryers… I keep seeing these women, or passing them and they *reek* of perfume, and have a lot of makeup and jewelry on.  They do look good, although I’ve almost passed out from perfume fumes a couple of times. Then, last night, they had the Miss Universe thing, and I think one of the prizes was like $5000 worth of perfume.  And I just though "geez" I find more and more that I must be pretty atypical these days.  Any thoughts? Tamara

— ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ A bus station is where a bus stops. A train station is where a train stops.   On my desk, I have a workstation…

Response:

Uhm, I was talking about everyday things.  To be perfectly honest, he doesn’t seem to act one way or another depending on the way I’m dressed.   I never said there was anything wrong with being fancy and dressy, in fact, exactly the opposite.  I just said I thought *I* was atypical for not gussying up all the time.  I dress nicely if we’re going out, anyhow, that’s beside the point. Tamara – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Gary W. Allen said… My wife goes casual most of the time, and that’s okay.  But when she dresses up – makeup, jewelry, sexy clothes – then she’s spectacular. What’s the matter with once in a while dressing for your husband – wearing what you know turns him on and gets him going.  I know.  He always says you look just fine and he wouldn’t have you any other way – but give it a try and see what kind of sparks it ignites. Gary bo…@mindspring.com (TYounger) wrote: Just curious if I’m in the vast minority here.   I don’t wear jewelry much – used to wear two pair of small studs, until I lost one of them   I don’t like makeup a lot of the time I have one bottle of perfume which is so neutral most people don’t even notice it, and I’ve had it for four years, and it’s only half empty I don’t use curling irons or blow dryers… I keep seeing these women, or passing them and they *reek* of perfume, and have a lot of makeup and jewelry on.  They do look good, although I’ve almost passed out from perfume fumes a couple of times.   Then, last night, they had the Miss Universe thing, and I think one of the prizes was like $5000 worth of perfume.  And I just though "geez" I find more and more that I must be pretty atypical these days.  Any thoughts? Tamara

Response:

I like CK One… it smells fresh to me.. soapy, showery.  I also have smelled April Fields, and it seems good too.. nice and light. Tamara – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Kimberlee said… Makeup: Mascara & Lipstick. Perfume…all kinds, but in small bottles.  And I HATE perfumes that you can smell 5 minutes after someone’s left the room.  Manufacturers *waaaay* overdo it nowadays…most of the *expensive* stuff smells like cheap stuff.  What’s with that? My favorites: Coco by Chanel, Parfum by Aveda & White Shoulders.   TYounger wrote: Just curious if I’m in the vast minority here. I don’t wear jewelry much – used to wear two pair of small studs, until I lost one of them I don’t like makeup a lot of the time I have one bottle of perfume which is so neutral most people don’t even notice it, and I’ve had it for four years, and it’s only half empty I don’t use curling irons or blow dryers… I keep seeing these women, or passing them and they *reek* of perfume, and have a lot of makeup and jewelry on.  They do look good, although I’ve almost passed out from perfume fumes a couple of times. Then, last night, they had the Miss Universe thing, and I think one of the prizes was like $5000 worth of perfume.  And I just though "geez" I find more and more that I must be pretty atypical these days.  Any thoughts? Tamara

Response:

This is a beautiful tribute.  If my husband wrote something like this about me, I would keep and treasure it forever. Show it to her, please. Taylor Amused wrote in message

<2Zy33.633$0×1.195…@news-west.eli.net

…

:My wife is both the Tomboy and the girlie-type.  The best thing is she pulls ff both with equal style and grace.  One day it will be jeans, a ponytail, :and little makeup.  The next it will be dresses, hair ribbons, and looking :like a knockout. : :She is at home deep in the mountains sitting around the fire, hiking to the :top of the trail, or pitching a tent.  She is at home rolling around with :the boys on the floor.  She is at home on the dance floor at a club, either :country or rock.  She is at home at elegant restaurants, fancy hotels, and :social events. : :If I could choose one word to describe her, it would be feminine.  But :feminine encompasses the whole spectrum of strength and weakness, bold and :demure. : :Man, does she ever keep my interest. : :– : :Amused : :"Mmmmmmm!  That’s good bass!" : : :TYounger wrote in message …

:

Just curious if I’m in the vast minority here.

:

:

I don’t wear jewelry much – used to wear two pair of small

studs, until I :

lost one of them

: :

:

I don’t like makeup a lot of the time

:

:

I have one bottle of perfume which is so neutral most

people don’t even :

notice it, and I’ve had it for four years, and it’s only

half empty :

:

I don’t use curling irons or blow dryers…

:

:

I keep seeing these women, or passing them and they *reek*

of perfume, :

and have a lot of makeup and jewelry on.  They do look

good, although :

I’ve almost passed out from perfume fumes a couple of

times. :

:

Then, last night, they had the Miss Universe thing, and I

think one of :

the prizes was like $5000 worth of perfume.  And I just

though "geez" :

:

I find more and more that I must be pretty atypical these

days.  Any :

thoughts?

:

:

Tamara

: :

Response:

My wife goes casual most of the time, and that’s okay.  But when she dresses up – makeup, jewelry, sexy clothes – then she’s spectacular. What’s the matter with once in a while dressing for your husband – wearing what you know turns him on and gets him going.  I know.  He always says you look just fine and he wouldn’t have you any other way – but give it a try and see what kind of sparks it ignites. Gary – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -bo…@mindspring.com (TYounger) wrote:

Just curious if I’m in the vast minority here.   I don’t wear jewelry much – used to wear two pair of small studs, until I lost one of them   I don’t like makeup a lot of the time I have one bottle of perfume which is so neutral most people don’t even notice it, and I’ve had it for four years, and it’s only half empty I don’t use curling irons or blow dryers… I keep seeing these women, or passing them and they *reek* of perfume, and have a lot of makeup and jewelry on.  They do look good, although I’ve almost passed out from perfume fumes a couple of times.   Then, last night, they had the Miss Universe thing, and I think one of the prizes was like $5000 worth of perfume.  And I just though "geez" I find more and more that I must be pretty atypical these days.  Any thoughts? Tamara

Response:

I’ve been wearing the same set of earrings (have have two in each ear) since Christmas, when my Mom gave them to me. I wear makeup on special occasions (weddings, funerals, parties, any dress up beyond shorts and a T occasion). I wear a light perfume in winter (Clinique’s Happy, or Estee Lauder Pleasures), but can’t stand it in summer, it makes me feel hot, so I just use scented shower gel and lotion from Bath and Body Works. It smells fresh but not overpowering. I have a short, pixie cut so there are no blow dryers or curling irons. If I have to be out of the house quickly, I will blow it a little so it’s dry. I used to be the type that had to be ‘put together’ every morning before leaving for work. Weekends were a different story, though. I worked for years in publishing where there’s no dress code and I worked with many artistic types. I was sitting in a meeting one day and realized that 10 out of the 12 women in the room weren’t wearing any makeup. I decided then and there I could it too. Now that I work from home, I sometimes put on mascara just for a lark, and I’m trying to change my image from plain old shorts and tees, to shorts and tees with flair or class. Althea – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -TYounger wrote in message …

Just curious if I’m in the vast minority here. I don’t wear jewelry much – used to wear two pair of small studs, until I lost one of them I don’t like makeup a lot of the time I have one bottle of perfume which is so neutral most people don’t even notice it, and I’ve had it for four years, and it’s only half empty I don’t use curling irons or blow dryers… I keep seeing these women, or passing them and they *reek* of perfume, and have a lot of makeup and jewelry on.  They do look good, although I’ve almost passed out from perfume fumes a couple of times. Then, last night, they had the Miss Universe thing, and I think one of the prizes was like $5000 worth of perfume.  And I just though "geez" I find more and more that I must be pretty atypical these days.  Any thoughts? Tamara

Response:

Hmmm, I seem to own most of those things, but they hang around gathering dust most of the time.  I have four or five bottles of perfume on my dresser, but *never* use any (my husband has occasionally questioned me about this situation), and I own plenty of earrings, but never wear those, either.  I think that’s mostly because my hair would cover them up, so there’s not much point in putting them on. My job doesn’t require me to dress up, so I never wear pantyhose, and skirts only in the summer.  I do, however, wear makeup and fuss with my hair every morning, because it helps *A LOT*. Geez, who could possibly use $5000 worth of perfume?  I’d probably have to sell it on eBay or something!  :-) Fluffy Rain – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Tamara wrote:

Just curious if I’m in the vast minority here.   I don’t wear jewelry much – used to wear two pair of small studs, until I lost one of them   I don’t like makeup a lot of the time I have one bottle of perfume which is so neutral most people don’t even notice it, and I’ve had it for four years, and it’s only half empty I don’t use curling irons or blow dryers… I keep seeing these women, or passing them and they *reek* of perfume, and have a lot of makeup and jewelry on.  They do look good, although I’ve almost passed out from perfume fumes a couple of times.   Then, last night, they had the Miss Universe thing, and I think one of the prizes was like $5000 worth of perfume.  And I just though "geez" I find more and more that I must be pretty atypical these days.  Any thoughts? Tamara

Response:

She got my interest too!   She sounds like a totally well rounded woman. You are a lucky man. Arnie PS I hope you tell her that often. In article <2Zy33.633$0×1.195…@news-west.eli.net

, "Amused"

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<amus…@REMOVEhotmail.com

wrote: My wife is both the Tomboy and the girlie-type.  The best thing is she pulls off both with equal style and grace.  One day it will be jeans, a ponytail, and little makeup.  The next it will be dresses, hair ribbons, and looking like a knockout. She is at home deep in the mountains sitting around the fire, hiking to the top of the trail, or pitching a tent.  She is at home rolling around with the boys on the floor.  She is at home on the dance floor at a club, either country or rock.  She is at home at elegant restaurants, fancy hotels, and social events. If I could choose one word to describe her, it would be feminine.  But feminine encompasses the whole spectrum of strength and weakness, bold and demure. Man, does she ever keep my interest. — Amused "Mmmmmmm!  That’s good bass!" TYounger wrote in message … Just curious if I’m in the vast minority here. I don’t wear jewelry much – used to wear two pair of small studs, until I lost one of them I don’t like makeup a lot of the time I have one bottle of perfume which is so neutral most people don’t even notice it, and I’ve had it for four years, and it’s only half empty I don’t use curling irons or blow dryers… I keep seeing these women, or passing them and they *reek* of perfume, and have a lot of makeup and jewelry on.  They do look good, although I’ve almost passed out from perfume fumes a couple of times. Then, last night, they had the Miss Universe thing, and I think one of the prizes was like $5000 worth of perfume.  And I just though "geez" I find more and more that I must be pretty atypical these days.  Any thoughts? Tamara

Response:

My wife is both the Tomboy and the girlie-type.  The best thing is she pulls off both with equal style and grace.  One day it will be jeans, a ponytail, and little makeup.  The next it will be dresses, hair ribbons, and looking like a knockout. She is at home deep in the mountains sitting around the fire, hiking to the top of the trail, or pitching a tent.  She is at home rolling around with the boys on the floor.  She is at home on the dance floor at a club, either country or rock.  She is at home at elegant restaurants, fancy hotels, and social events. If I could choose one word to describe her, it would be feminine.  But feminine encompasses the whole spectrum of strength and weakness, bold and demure. Man, does she ever keep my interest. — Amused "Mmmmmmm!  That’s good bass!" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -TYounger wrote in message …

Just curious if I’m in the vast minority here. I don’t wear jewelry much – used to wear two pair of small studs, until I lost one of them I don’t like makeup a lot of the time I have one bottle of perfume which is so neutral most people don’t even notice it, and I’ve had it for four years, and it’s only half empty I don’t use curling irons or blow dryers… I keep seeing these women, or passing them and they *reek* of perfume, and have a lot of makeup and jewelry on.  They do look good, although I’ve almost passed out from perfume fumes a couple of times. Then, last night, they had the Miss Universe thing, and I think one of the prizes was like $5000 worth of perfume.  And I just though "geez" I find more and more that I must be pretty atypical these days.  Any thoughts? Tamara

Response:

Amused, You should print out your post and give it to your wife, I bet she would just love to hear what you wrote. Now this is romantic! momalot – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Amused wrote:

My wife is both the Tomboy and the girlie-type.  The best thing is she pulls off both with equal style and grace.  One day it will be jeans, a ponytail, and little makeup.  The next it will be dresses, hair ribbons, and looking like a knockout. She is at home deep in the mountains sitting around the fire, hiking to the top of the trail, or pitching a tent.  She is at home rolling around with the boys on the floor.  She is at home on the dance floor at a club, either country or rock.  She is at home at elegant restaurants, fancy hotels, and social events. If I could choose one word to describe her, it would be feminine.  But feminine encompasses the whole spectrum of strength and weakness, bold and demure. Man, does she ever keep my interest. — Amused "Mmmmmmm!  That’s good bass!" TYounger wrote in message … Just curious if I’m in the vast minority here. I don’t wear jewelry much – used to wear two pair of small studs, until I lost one of them I don’t like makeup a lot of the time I have one bottle of perfume which is so neutral most people don’t even notice it, and I’ve had it for four years, and it’s only half empty I don’t use curling irons or blow dryers… I keep seeing these women, or passing them and they *reek* of perfume, and have a lot of makeup and jewelry on.  They do look good, although I’ve almost passed out from perfume fumes a couple of times. Then, last night, they had the Miss Universe thing, and I think one of the prizes was like $5000 worth of perfume.  And I just though "geez" I find more and more that I must be pretty atypical these days.  Any thoughts? Tamara

Response:

You sound very much like my wife – she wears one pair or earrings and her wedding band, and mascara for special occasions. I don’t think it’s all that atypical – the company I work for is very small, and of the 6 women in the office, none are daily perfume/makeup wearers.  TYounger (bo…@mindspring.com) wrote: : Just curious if I’m in the vast minority here.   : I don’t wear jewelry much – used to wear two pair of small studs, until I : lost one of them   : I don’t like makeup a lot of the time : I have one bottle of perfume which is so neutral most people don’t even : notice it, and I’ve had it for four years, and it’s only half empty : I don’t use curling irons or blow dryers… : I keep seeing these women, or passing them and they *reek* of perfume, : and have a lot of makeup and jewelry on.  They do look good, although : I’ve almost passed out from perfume fumes a couple of times.   : Then, last night, they had the Miss Universe thing, and I think one of : the prizes was like $5000 worth of perfume.  And I just though "geez" : I find more and more that I must be pretty atypical these days.  Any : thoughts? : Tamara

Response:

I’m fairly simple in terms of adornment, as well.  I don’t usually wear makeup during the week (Mike prefers me without, but I prefer me with), and wear hardly any jewelry — my engagement and wedding rings, another ring Mike bought me when we were dating, and a ring that belonged to my aunt (my uncle gave it to me after the funeral). I blow-dry on average three days out of seven, and *never* wear pantyhose (but I do like nice undies!). One last thing: My sole true vanity *is* my hair; I’ve been going gray since I was 23, and have been covering it up for years. Well, tonight I bit the bullet and WENT BLONDE!!!!  I figured, what the heck, I’m dying my hair anyway, might as well have a little fun with it! The funny thing is, I always thought I’d look HORRIBLE as a blonde, because I’m *so* pale to begin with, I thought I’d look washed out. Truth is, it looks TERRIFIC! I love it! I’m not platinum, not by a long stretch; it’s more like a honey blonde. My hairdresser did a great job; there are lots of variations in color, so it really looks natural. So, now you know my secret. Oh, damn… there’s another thing: my nails. My fingernails *must* be polished at all times or I feel like a slob.  But they aren’t "killer" nails — after all, I have a toddler in the house! Kathleen On Thu, 27 May 1999 19:13:28 -0400, TYounger, in a burst of clarity and wisdom, writ: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Just curious if I’m in the vast minority here.   I don’t wear jewelry much – used to wear two pair of small studs, until I lost one of them   I don’t like makeup a lot of the time I have one bottle of perfume which is so neutral most people don’t even notice it, and I’ve had it for four years, and it’s only half empty I don’t use curling irons or blow dryers… I keep seeing these women, or passing them and they *reek* of perfume, and have a lot of makeup and jewelry on.  They do look good, although I’ve almost passed out from perfume fumes a couple of times.   Then, last night, they had the Miss Universe thing, and I think one of the prizes was like $5000 worth of perfume.  And I just though "geez" I find more and more that I must be pretty atypical these days.  Any thoughts? Tamara

   "If sense were common, more people would have it." — Me ICQ# – 33613577 **Spam Trap** Accentuate the Positive to send e-mail.

Response:

Just curious if I’m in the vast minority here.   I don’t wear jewelry much – used to wear two pair of small studs, until I lost one of them   I don’t like makeup a lot of the time I have one bottle of perfume which is so neutral most people don’t even notice it, and I’ve had it for four years, and it’s only half empty I don’t use curling irons or blow dryers… I keep seeing these women, or passing them and they *reek* of perfume, and have a lot of makeup and jewelry on.  They do look good, although I’ve almost passed out from perfume fumes a couple of times.   Then, last night, they had the Miss Universe thing, and I think one of the prizes was like $5000 worth of perfume.  And I just though "geez" I find more and more that I must be pretty atypical these days.  Any thoughts? Tamara

Response:

Yep, my nails always have to have polish, but I never go get a manicure, I do them myself. I have waist length hair that I let dry naturally every morning, I let it hang down, except in the barn, and then I wear it in a scrunchie, because the horses like to chew on it.lol. I wear mascara and lipstick (a light pink one). And I always spray body sprays on (you know the really cheap kind, that last about an hour ). I would love to be able to dress up everyday, it makes me feel good to wear a dress, but between the kids, and the animals, well….they just don’t appreciate my feminine flair. lol – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Kathleen DeFilippo wrote:

I’m fairly simple in terms of adornment, as well.  I don’t usually wear makeup during the week (Mike prefers me without, but I prefer me with), and wear hardly any jewelry — my engagement and wedding rings, another ring Mike bought me when we were dating, and a ring that belonged to my aunt (my uncle gave it to me after the funeral). I blow-dry on average three days out of seven, and *never* wear pantyhose (but I do like nice undies!). One last thing: My sole true vanity *is* my hair; I’ve been going gray since I was 23, and have been covering it up for years. Well, tonight I bit the bullet and WENT BLONDE!!!!  I figured, what the heck, I’m dying my hair anyway, might as well have a little fun with it! The funny thing is, I always thought I’d look HORRIBLE as a blonde, because I’m *so* pale to begin with, I thought I’d look washed out. Truth is, it looks TERRIFIC! I love it! I’m not platinum, not by a long stretch; it’s more like a honey blonde. My hairdresser did a great job; there are lots of variations in color, so it really looks natural. So, now you know my secret. Oh, damn… there’s another thing: my nails. My fingernails *must* be polished at all times or I feel like a slob.  But they aren’t "killer" nails — after all, I have a toddler in the house! Kathleen On Thu, 27 May 1999 19:13:28 -0400, TYounger, in a burst of clarity and wisdom, writ: Just curious if I’m in the vast minority here. I don’t wear jewelry much – used to wear two pair of small studs, until I lost one of them I don’t like makeup a lot of the time I have one bottle of perfume which is so neutral most people don’t even notice it, and I’ve had it for four years, and it’s only half empty I don’t use curling irons or blow dryers… I keep seeing these women, or passing them and they *reek* of perfume, and have a lot of makeup and jewelry on.  They do look good, although I’ve almost passed out from perfume fumes a couple of times. Then, last night, they had the Miss Universe thing, and I think one of the prizes was like $5000 worth of perfume.  And I just though "geez" I find more and more that I must be pretty atypical these days.  Any thoughts? Tamara    "If sense were common, more people would have it." — Me ICQ# – 33613577 **Spam Trap** Accentuate the Positive to send e-mail.

Response:

I’m pretty much the same.  I wear my wedding rings only.  Very seldom do I wear makeup.  I just don’t like makeup at all.  I have super curly hair so no need for a curling iron and if I blow dry my hair I have an afro.  The only thing I indulge in is perfume,  I wear perfume a lot. But it’s not expensive perfume, it’s either body sprays from Bath and Body works or Lady Stetson. (my dh loves it)  I just can’t get into the full makeup and jewelry everyday.  Now my one sister on the other hand will not leave her house without full makeup, jewelry and perfume.  She looks perfect all the time and to me, yuck, I like to relax and look like me.  Suzy

Response:

When I was in high school, I was so insecure that I _would not_ leave the house without heavy makeup.  After I got to college, I got sick of putting in all that effort every day.  And who the hell am I trying to impress anyway?  Plus as a SAHM, it would be completely futile for me to put on makeup because Meg loves to touch my face and give kisses, so it would all be gone in five minutes anyway.  Sometimes I worry that I’ve "let myself go" (an attitude I’ve gotten from my mother on occasion) and I’m not trying hard enough to look good for Craig.  But he says he doesn’t care and tells me I’m beautiful quite often.  I see other SAHMs at storytime at the local bookstore, some with two or three kids, and their hair is done and they have makeup on.  That’s when I feel really inadequate.  If they have the time and opportunity, why don’t I?  Of course, they could be ignoring their kids or plopping them down in front of the TV in order to groom themselves.  Most of the time I don’t care.  If people are going to look down on me for lack of makeup or a perfect coif, do I really want to socialize with them anyway?  I figure as long as I’m comfortable and my husband is happy, then all is well. — Jennifer, mommy to Meaghan 09Apr98 to reply, remove outdamnspam! from address – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -TYounger wrote in message …

Just curious if I’m in the vast minority here. I don’t wear jewelry much – used to wear two pair of small studs, until I lost one of them I don’t like makeup a lot of the time I have one bottle of perfume which is so neutral most people don’t even notice it, and I’ve had it for four years, and it’s only half empty I don’t use curling irons or blow dryers… I keep seeing these women, or passing them and they *reek* of perfume, and have a lot of makeup and jewelry on.  They do look good, although I’ve almost passed out from perfume fumes a couple of times. Then, last night, they had the Miss Universe thing, and I think one of the prizes was like $5000 worth of perfume.  And I just though "geez" I find more and more that I must be pretty atypical these days.  Any thoughts? Tamara

Response:

No, I don’t think so. Perfume gives me a headache. I like light stuff. I do like it but I have two kids. I stay home with them and it doesn’t quite go with coloring. Who has time to worry about perfume. I wear it when I dress up, twice a year. I enjoy nice smelling lotion but again who has  time for it. Make up I like it light but I really only wear it once in a while.  I like girlie stuff but I don’t have time for it. Most of the people I know don’t bother with it allot.  I’m sure I run in a different crowed

Response:

This is pretty cool. I too think that I am somewhat "atypical"  when it comes to these things.  Although I do doll-up on average twice a week, I keep it simple; lipstick, a pair of earrings (I own 4 pair), and my wedding rings.  I don’t wear panty hose and I prefer comfort to glamour.  Every once in a while I will go all out and dress-up, but most of the time I keep it simple. I am originally from a city where if you are not in make-up by 7 am, there must be something wrong with you.  I even recall an ex-boyfriend of my saying "Why don’t you look like your sister in the mornings?"  My sister would be doll faced by six am with perfect hair.  I, on the other hand, would open the door for him with my looking as though I stuck my finger in an electrical socket and could care less. But, that’s just me. I think that you are one of the rare people who like being natural.  There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that! -swb TYounger <bo…@mindspring.com

wrote in message

news:MPG.11b79ba6b2a989b09897f7@news.mindspring.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Just curious if I’m in the vast minority here. I don’t wear jewelry much – used to wear two pair of small studs, until I lost one of them I don’t like makeup a lot of the time I have one bottle of perfume which is so neutral most people don’t even notice it, and I’ve had it for four years, and it’s only half empty I don’t use curling irons or blow dryers… I keep seeing these women, or passing them and they *reek* of perfume, and have a lot of makeup and jewelry on.  They do look good, although I’ve almost passed out from perfume fumes a couple of times. Then, last night, they had the Miss Universe thing, and I think one of the prizes was like $5000 worth of perfume.  And I just though "geez" I find more and more that I must be pretty atypical these days.  Any thoughts? Tamara

Response: