Question:
puc
Oh my. That is a lot to ask for.
puc
I tend to agree on one point with a friend of mine. Some of us
puc
are not
puc
ready for relationships; not willing and so we reject life till
puc
our 20’s
puc
or 30’s.
puc
The majority of people however experiment and search
puc
for them-selves.
Well, I’ve done that, I’m 25, but I’m still a virgin (and proud of it; well to a certain extend 
( ) puc
They feel passionate and they call it love; and later find out
puc
that it was not love.
If I look around me seeing my frends I can only agree. Reinoud
Response:
Paul Johnson (pmjohnson@) wrote:
: What’s the matter with having some physical standards for a person? I mean : we all have non-physical standards for people we would like to be (or are) : involved with. Why not physical? I’m really at a loose for why this is bad? There’s nothing wrong with *preferring* someone you consider physically attractive. I think it’s shallow to completely *refuse* to consider someone who doesn’t meet exacting physical standards. Yes, I’d certainly say that all else being equal, most of us prefer an attractive mate. That’s not unreasonable at all; maybe some people are so afraid of being branded as shallow that they don’t admit it. I think it’s that over time, people tend to notice the physical traits of their partner less and less as time goes on (and for most of us, the physical attractiveness wanes over the years anyway). A heart of gold and a good-spirited personality, however, don’t tend to wane over time and provide years of laughter, tenderness, fun and emotional fulfillment. In general, to answer your question, I think people feel (or at least *say* that they feel) that being discriminating on an immutable characteristic (well, immutable without crash diest or plastic surgery, maybe) is somehow more "wrong" than discriminating on a more mutable trait. I don’t know. Besides, I seem to have a different standard with respect to physical attractiveness. I’d rather have an average looking, somewhat overweight woman who takes care of her appearance, dresses nicely and makes the effort to *be* attractive over a beauty who just doesn’t really seem to take time to "look her best." And even then, the physical thing can be a first impression, an ice-breaker, something on which you *consider* a starting point for a relationship (in conventional dating), but not something upon which relationship ultimately succeeds or fails in most cases. In short, there’s nothing wrong with being a *factor*, at least to some degree, and at least in initial stages of a relationship. People don’t often fall in love with another’s heart and soul unil they have fallen in lust with their appearance–after all, appearance is the first thing we tend to notice about each other. But using physical attractiveness as the "be-all, end-all" criterion for potential mates is likely to eliminate the most compatible people and leave one with a very small pool of potential partners. After all, if you’re going to apply those standards, people shouldn’t whine if others apply similar standards back *on them*. — Tim Irvin, zigg…@netgate.net WWW: http://www.netgate.net/~ziggy29/ While you were asleep, the price of gasoline surpassed the U.S. budget deficit. Next up: the U.S. national debt.
Response:
In <4n7jpp$…@ss.netgate.net
zigg…@ng.netgate.net (Tim Irvin)
writes: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
Paul Johnson (pmjohnson@) wrote: : What’s the matter with having some physical standards for a person?
I mean
: we all have non-physical standards for people we would like to be
(or are)
: involved with. Why not physical? I’m really at a loose for why this
is bad?
There’s nothing wrong with *preferring* someone you consider
physically
attractive. I think it’s shallow to completely *refuse* to consider someone who doesn’t meet exacting physical standards. Yes, I’d
certainly
say that all else being equal, most of us prefer an attractive mate.
That’s
not unreasonable at all; maybe some people are so afraid of being
branded as
shallow that they don’t admit it. I think it’s that over time, people tend to notice the physical traits of their partner less and less as time goes on (and for most of us,
the
physical attractiveness wanes over the years anyway). A heart of gold and a good-spirited personality, however, don’t tend to wane over time and provide years of laughter, tenderness, fun and emotional
fulfillment.
In general, to answer your question, I think people feel (or at least
*say*
that they feel) that being discriminating on an immutable
characteristic
(well, immutable without crash diest or plastic surgery, maybe) is
somehow
more "wrong" than discriminating on a more mutable trait. I don’t
know.
Besides, I seem to have a different standard with respect to physical attractiveness. I’d rather have an average looking, somewhat
overweight
woman who takes care of her appearance, dresses nicely and makes the effort to *be* attractive over a beauty who just doesn’t really seem
to
take time to "look her best." And even then, the physical thing can
be
a first impression, an ice-breaker, something on which you *consider* a starting point for a relationship (in conventional dating), but not something upon which relationship ultimately succeeds or fails in most cases. In short, there’s nothing wrong with being a *factor*, at least to some degree, and at least in initial stages of a relationship. People don’t often fall in love with another’s heart and soul unil they have fallen in lust with their appearance–after all, appearance is the first thing we tend to notice about each other. But using physical attractiveness as the "be-all, end-all" criterion for potential mates is likely to eliminate the most compatible people and leave one with a very small pool of potential partners. After all, if you’re going
to
apply those standards, people shouldn’t whine if others apply similar standards back *on them*. — Tim Irvin, zigg…@netgate.net WWW: http://www.netgate.net/~ziggy29/ While you were asleep, the price of gasoline surpassed the U.S. budget deficit. Next up: the U.S. national debt.
I just want to thank you, Tim, for putting into words what I was thinking about saying to our 33 year old virgin friend. By using only or primarily physical standards to judge someone, you might miss somebody really worthwhile just because they have some physical characteristic you don’t like. Looks erode, we sag, wrinkle, pouch (Sad, but true). You sound like a really nice guy with his head on straight. I’d like to talk with you further. If you would like that, e-mail me, and we can start a correspondence. Maggie magp…@ix.netcom.com
Response:
In Glenn Saunders <kris…@primenet.com
writes: The mortal Paul Johnson wrote: : What’s the matter with having some physical standards for a person? I mean : we all have non-physical standards for people we would like to be (or are) : involved with. Why not physical? I’m really at a loose for why this is bad? It’s simple. Because when you tend to focus on the exterior, you let your hormones decide whether the person is right for you. And that’s enough for a one-nighter but it’s going to doom a lot of relationships. And if you do insist on internal standards and then add on top of that a lot of external standards you may find yourself very lonely because people who are that blessed are pretty rare. People of good character are rare enough.
I agree with you completely when you say people of good character are rare.
And people of good character do not like being rejected because of matters which are often not under their control, but simply a matter of nature.
I’m not saying the person had to be model perfect I’m just saying having some standards.
I’m not saying you should date someone who repulses you physically, but everybody’s got to stop looking for unrealistic specimens. What, 80% of americans are overweight? Sheer statistics will probably doom anyone with such narrow standards unless they are rich and famous.
nit & tangent: where did you hear that 80% of Americans are overweight? That sounds pretty high. (even given that the heigh/weight charts currently in use are not representative of the average healthy human being) But back to standards. I’m not saying being so narrowly minded as to want a strawberry blonde bombshell. I’m saying having a general picture of what you want someone to be like. I’m sure you have standards that you don’t want to be involved with a person who doesn’t respect you and treats you like crap. Well you’ve just limited yourself to a subset of the population. What you say you want someone who enjoys classical music (as an example) you’ve just limited yourself to another subset. And so on. Yes having physical standards for someone you would like to be involved with on a long term basis (be it marriage or anything else) limits you choices but hey other factors limit your choices too what’s one more. (IMO) If you elimate all your standards (physicall and non) you can truelly call youself desperate and have all that baggage to deal with too! For example I have certain physical standards for wome I’m romatically interested in becuase of certain physical activities I do that I would like to do with future romatic interests. These interests preclude certain groups of people. But (just so this is clear) if I find someone who interests me who doesn’t meet my physical standards I try like hell to get and keep them as a freind ’cause you can never have too many of them. Does this make a certain amount of sense? Paul Johnson Charlotte NC, as exciting as a trip to the bank http://www.vnet.net/users/pjohnson/index.html "Power tools are the key to any woman’s heart" – Leslie Harpold ———————————————————————— Planned Parenthood of Charlotte NC (1-800-438-1019) 1341 E. Morehead Street & 4822 Albemarle Road ————————————————————————
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Melissa O’Brien <R…@concentric.net
wrote: Darla J <Dar…@mindlink.bc.ca wrote: lov…@aa.washington.edu (Bob Lovell) wrote: Two dates in junior high does not a girlfriend make. In fact, I’d barely say that it rates as an acquaintance. Being bitter and twisted about the actions of a 14 year old is hardly the basis for a successful relationship at 33. I have forgiven her. She got hers too. She became obese, a smoker, and loose. But how can I forget what she did to me? Call me a glutton for punishment, but I’m going to try this again. She didn’t do anything to you. She was 14. You were 14. You went on 2 dates. Unless she handcuffed you to the flag pole naked and threw tomatoes at you, she did nothing wrong. All she did was find out that she did not like you. That is not a sin. That is reality. As your messages are clearly indicating, you are not attracted to everyone. Why do you expect them to be attracted to you? Maybe she is turned off by guys that cut their hair too short, in the same way that you are turned off by "floozies". Yup. That’s how it works. Perhaps you are expecting a little much? How about loyalty and integrity? That is exactly my point. Dating requires loyalty to oneself first and foremost. The intent of dating is to find out if you like the other person. Then, _if_ you do, you will establish a _relationship_ at which point you will then and only then, have a loyalty to the other person. Someone who went on a couple of dates with a person, found out that they were not compatible and _continued_ dating the person anyways, would truly be a person without loyalty (to themselves) and without integrity. How can you have so much invested in someone that you have only dated for 2 weeks, that you suffer pain and betrayal? Perhaps some of your confusion arises from the fact that your concept of "dating" is significantly more serious than most people’s. When I date I only date one girl at a time. ie I have integrity and loyalty. Next time I will ask up front that the dating be exclusive from day one. If she want to date someone else while dating me then she will have to tell me first. Personally, I agree with the concept of dating only one person at a time, though I understand that I am in the minority. Nonetheless, you missed my original point, so I will try to make it again. The best I can do is use an analogy. If you bought a scratch & win lottery ticket and scratched it as you were leaving the store, only to find that you had not won anything, would you suffer intense disappointment, weep in bitterness, graduate to anger at the unfairness of the system and then vow to a life of poverty because money never comes when you really want it? This is an exaggerated response to an everyday occurrence and it appears from your message that you seem to be exaggerating the commitment implied when you go on a date (exclusive or not). I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think that dating etiquette requires one to officially "break up" after a couple of dates (up to 6 or so!?!). I believe the policy is to simply either stop asking or stop accepting (I’ve never actually been in the situation to do it, but I’ve certainly observed the phenomenon). Perhaps you were expecting different rules? No one, male or female, can build (or attract) a relationship while in "desperate mode". Then how am i to do it? Listen. Listen to the women you meet. Listen to the people in this newsgroup. Listen to your therapist. Stop rationalizing your behavior. Just because you plan to put rose petals on your honeymoon bed, it does not make you a "nice" guy. Based on your coarse response to Brenda whats-her-name from junior high, I would say that your "niceness" is decidedly in question. Not very spiritual or forgiving. Next time you are in church, ask your reverend/minister/rabbi/whatever about tolerance and forgiveness. Both are very attractive traits. 
Amen and ditto. Beautifully put, Darla! Melissa Allow a newbie to add a few cents worth too. The fundamental problem you seem to be having is that you feel so sorry for yourself that it affects your very being. If remaining a virgin until your wedding is so important to you be proud of it. It should hardly make you desperate if you’ve gone without this long, what’s a few more years. From all I hear you need to learn to love yourself before you should even entertain falling in love with someone else. I’m going from an operational definition of love that means: giving, forgiving, unselfishness etc. How can you ever hope to be any of these things others find so attractive if you’re so centered on your own needs? These words may sound harsh, but I believe they’re true. In our search for our "perfect" mate we should concentrate on developing those attributes that would be attractive to the type of partner we seek. Self-absorbtion and self-pity isn’t appealing to a healthy person. It will only attract those with dependency disorders – hardly the prescription for a good marriage. - Bookman-
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Melissa O’Brien <R…@concentric.net
wrote: Darla J <Dar…@mindlink.bc.ca wrote: lov…@aa.washington.edu (Bob Lovell) wrote: Two dates in junior high does not a girlfriend make. In fact, I’d barely say that it rates as an acquaintance. Being bitter and twisted about the actions of a 14 year old is hardly the basis for a successful relationship at 33. I have forgiven her. She got hers too. She became obese, a smoker, and loose. But how can I forget what she did to me? Call me a glutton for punishment, but I’m going to try this again. She didn’t do anything to you. She was 14. You were 14. You went on 2 dates. Unless she handcuffed you to the flag pole naked and threw tomatoes at you, she did nothing wrong. All she did was find out that she did not like you. That is not a sin. That is reality. As your messages are clearly indicating, you are not attracted to everyone. Why do you expect them to be attracted to you? Maybe she is turned off by guys that cut their hair too short, in the same way that you are turned off by "floozies". Yup. That’s how it works. Perhaps you are expecting a little much? How about loyalty and integrity? That is exactly my point. Dating requires loyalty to oneself first and foremost. The intent of dating is to find out if you like the other person. Then, _if_ you do, you will establish a _relationship_ at which point you will then and only then, have a loyalty to the other person. Someone who went on a couple of dates with a person, found out that they were not compatible and _continued_ dating the person anyways, would truly be a person without loyalty (to themselves) and without integrity. How can you have so much invested in someone that you have only dated for 2 weeks, that you suffer pain and betrayal? Perhaps some of your confusion arises from the fact that your concept of "dating" is significantly more serious than most people’s. When I date I only date one girl at a time. ie I have integrity and loyalty. Next time I will ask up front that the dating be exclusive from day one. If she want to date someone else while dating me then she will have to tell me first. Personally, I agree with the concept of dating only one person at a time, though I understand that I am in the minority. Nonetheless, you missed my original point, so I will try to make it again. The best I can do is use an analogy. If you bought a scratch & win lottery ticket and scratched it as you were leaving the store, only to find that you had not won anything, would you suffer intense disappointment, weep in bitterness, graduate to anger at the unfairness of the system and then vow to a life of poverty because money never comes when you really want it? This is an exaggerated response to an everyday occurrence and it appears from your message that you seem to be exaggerating the commitment implied when you go on a date (exclusive or not). I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think that dating etiquette requires one to officially "break up" after a couple of dates (up to 6 or so!?!). I believe the policy is to simply either stop asking or stop accepting (I’ve never actually been in the situation to do it, but I’ve certainly observed the phenomenon). Perhaps you were expecting different rules? No one, male or female, can build (or attract) a relationship while in "desperate mode". Then how am i to do it? Listen. Listen to the women you meet. Listen to the people in this newsgroup. Listen to your therapist. Stop rationalizing your behavior. Just because you plan to put rose petals on your honeymoon bed, it does not make you a "nice" guy. Based on your coarse response to Brenda whats-her-name from junior high, I would say that your "niceness" is decidedly in question. Not very spiritual or forgiving. Next time you are in church, ask your reverend/minister/rabbi/whatever about tolerance and forgiveness. Both are very attractive traits. Amen and ditto. Beautifully put, Darla! Melissa Allow a newbie to add a few cents worth too. The fundamental problem you seem to be having is that you feel so sorry for yourself that it affects your very being. If remaining a virgin until your wedding is so important to you be proud of it. It should hardly make you desperate if you’ve gone without this long, what’s a few more years. From all I hear you need to learn to love yourself before you should even entertain falling in love with someone else. I’m going from an operational definition of love that means: giving, forgiving, unselfishness etc. How can you ever hope to be any of these things others find so attractive if you’re so centered on your own needs? These words may sound harsh, but I believe they’re true. In our search for our "perfect" mate we should concentrate on developing those attributes that would be attractive to the type of partner we seek. Self-absorbtion and self-pity isn’t appealing to a healthy person. It will only attract those with dependency disorders – hardly the prescription for a good marriage.
Response:
Eric Praetzel (praet…@maxwell.uwaterloo.ca) wrote:
<SNIP
sorry, the post is just too long for a line by line followup.
So, Hope this makes sense. I realize that bob has some ideas about morality that well, scare many of us. However, I’m sure he realizes that at his age, finding who he wants is mission impossible. Even he did say that he wouldn’t mind a girl whose not "inexperienced". I think we’re taking the follow-ups a litle too far. His expectations may not be realistic, but you’ld be surprised. I for one have dated only conservative, religous, virgins. (of course, I’m only 21) Why beats the heck out of me. Since I’m an open non-religous liberal. I’m actually fairly moderte, but by far definately not conservative. Or religous. It’s not really his expectations that are shooting him in the foot. It’s his age. A big part of the problem is that he’s at a crossroads of his life, and he’s trying to use the "Stuff"(Lack of a better word… I’ve got others I’ld use, but they would be inappropriate) that religion has taught him. He’s not really applying a double standard, since he is judging himself by the same standard. A double standard would be if he was a non-virgin stud-type, and only dated virgins. Society might impose a double standard, but he isn’t. Now, what he needs to learn is how to A.) Let go of the past. Sure, he’s had a lot of social failure. (This prolly being a reason as to why he is so religous. Think about it. Religion is the last hope of those who have lost hope. You rarely see well-to-do families with large social circles and enough money becoming religious. The people who are religous are so because they’re looking for answers to questions that they can’t even yet comprehend. In this way, religion isn’t a bad thing) But this isn’t a reason to remain shy. B.)re-evaluate his standards. He may decide that a virgin is a must, but then he has to decide if age bothers him, since He’ld have to drop down in age to a female who might still be in her teens.(From the mormons. The church of latter day saints–Sorry, had to Now, asides from that, me thinks that this gentleman wants to learn how to be more social. I strongly believe that our friend bob is suffering from slight social phobia. His is a case where I believe counselling would do a lot of good. So, hopefully he will seek some.(hint) Let’s face it, he says he’s in school. Most schools have counselling programs that are by far cheaper than he will find when he leaves school. Here is a chance that might not be around later.
Response:
In article <4mrcc7$…@tribune.concentric.net
, Melissa O’Brien
<R…@concentric.net
writes: .As a woman to whom the MOST important quality in a guy is niceness, I feel I have to speak up for all of us women who are
sick
and tired of being told that our lack of attraction to the "nice" guy is
our fault because
at heart we all want to be dominated and abused.Not so.
From what I’ve seen (I keep using that term because that’s all I have to go on), I think you’re in the minority (at least initially).
I can attest to the fact that there are plenty of nice guys out there who
are also
interesting and therefore attractive.
Maybe so, but if they act like a cad (much nicer word than asshole) initially, women will find them even more attractive… Love and Light! Lunatic Fringe
Response:
Paul Johnson (pmjohnson@) wrote:
: What’s the matter with having some physical standards for a person? I mean : we all have non-physical standards for people we would like to be (or are) : involved with. Why not physical? I’m really at a loose for why this is bad? There’s nothing wrong with have some physical standards – if you want to have them. I’ll tell you something – my physical standards used to be, stay away from the really good looking ladies. Why? Simply because I have always been shy and this is coupled with a huge body confidence/image problem. Ok, I don’t have that physical standard now because the first deep relationship I had was with a woman who was just so good looking – that’s not just my opinion – most of the guys used to "drool" over her, pardon the expression. They all used to ask me, "how did you manage to get her interested in you?". I think the answer is this simple – she didn’t have a list of phsyical standards that precluded someone who is a little over weight and doesn’t dress, err…to impress – ie, ME. She looked beyond the physical stuff and saw that because I am overweight, it doesn’t mean that I’m not fun, not interesting, not loving or caring, not romantic and so on. That was five years ago - last year, a long term friend got completely stuck on me, I have to say, she was absolutely beautiful – but nothing came of it. Why? Because although she looks good, and has a wonderful personality, I never got that "feeling" inside, I just couldn’t love her as anything more than a friend. Looks maybe important to some people – to me, it’s more about how I feel for someone and how they feel for me. HTH Martin.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Darla J <Dar…@mindlink.bc.ca
wrote: lov…@aa.washington.edu (Bob Lovell) wrote: Two dates in junior high does not a girlfriend make. In fact, I’d barely say that it rates as an acquaintance. Being bitter and twisted about the actions of a 14 year old is hardly the basis for a successful relationship at 33. I have forgiven her. She got hers too. She became obese, a smoker, and loose. But how can I forget what she did to me? Call me a glutton for punishment, but I’m going to try this again. She didn’t do anything to you. She was 14. You were 14. You went on 2 dates. Unless she handcuffed you to the flag pole naked and threw tomatoes at you, she did nothing wrong. All she did was find out that she did not like you. That is not a sin. That is reality. As your messages are clearly indicating, you are not attracted to everyone. Why do you expect them to be attracted to you? Maybe she is turned off by guys that cut their hair too short, in the same way that you are turned off by "floozies". Yup. That’s how it works. Perhaps you are expecting a little much? How about loyalty and integrity? That is exactly my point. Dating requires loyalty to oneself first and foremost. The intent of dating is to find out if you like the other person. Then, _if_ you do, you will establish a _relationship_ at which point you will then and only then, have a loyalty to the other person. Someone who went on a couple of dates with a person, found out that they were not compatible and _continued_ dating the person anyways, would truly be a person without loyalty (to themselves) and without integrity. How can you have so much invested in someone that you have only dated for 2 weeks, that you suffer pain and betrayal? Perhaps some of your confusion arises from the fact that your concept of "dating" is significantly more serious than most people’s. When I date I only date one girl at a time. ie I have integrity and loyalty. Next time I will ask up front that the dating be exclusive from day one. If she want to date someone else while dating me then she will have to tell me first. Personally, I agree with the concept of dating only one person at a time, though I understand that I am in the minority. Nonetheless, you missed my original point, so I will try to make it again. The best I can do is use an analogy. If you bought a scratch & win lottery ticket and scratched it as you were leaving the store, only to find that you had not won anything, would you suffer intense disappointment, weep in bitterness, graduate to anger at the unfairness of the system and then vow to a life of poverty because money never comes when you really want it? This is an exaggerated response to an everyday occurrence and it appears from your message that you seem to be exaggerating the commitment implied when you go on a date (exclusive or not). I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think that dating etiquette requires one to officially "break up" after a couple of dates (up to 6 or so!?!). I believe the policy is to simply either stop asking or stop accepting (I’ve never actually been in the situation to do it, but I’ve certainly observed the phenomenon). Perhaps you were expecting different rules? No one, male or female, can build (or attract) a relationship while in "desperate mode". Then how am i to do it? Listen. Listen to the women you meet. Listen to the people in this newsgroup. Listen to your therapist. Stop rationalizing your behavior. Just because you plan to put rose petals on your honeymoon bed, it does not make you a "nice" guy. Based on your coarse response to Brenda whats-her-name from junior high, I would say that your "niceness" is decidedly in question. Not very spiritual or forgiving. Next time you are in church, ask your reverend/minister/rabbi/whatever about tolerance and forgiveness. Both are very attractive traits.
Amen and ditto. Beautifully put, Darla! Melissa
Response:
The mortal Paul Johnson wrote: : What’s the matter with having some physical standards for a person? I mean : we all have non-physical standards for people we would like to be (or are) : involved with. Why not physical? I’m really at a loose for why this is bad? It’s simple. Because when you tend to focus on the exterior, you let your hormones decide whether the person is right for you. And that’s enough for a one-nighter but it’s going to doom a lot of relationships. And if you do insist on internal standards and then add on top of that a lot of external standards you may find yourself very lonely because people who are that blessed are pretty rare. People of good character are rare enough. And people of good character do not like being rejected because of matters which are often not under their control, but simply a matter of nature. I’m not saying you should date someone who repulses you physically, but everybody’s got to stop looking for unrealistic specimens. What, 80% of americans are overweight? Sheer statistics will probably doom anyone with such narrow standards unless they are rich and famous.
Response:
Bob Lovell (lov…@aa.washington.edu) wrote:
: Martin L Baker <m…@rekab.demon.co.uk
wrote:
: I have mentioned that there is a difference between being a little : overweight and being obese. As for your love, I am happy for you and : her. I hope that things work out for you. Well, actually she maybe a little more than just a "little overweight". She is nearly 180 and is 5′3" – is that obese in your book? She doesn’t have a real bad hang-up about it, so why should I? :
Hell, and I can talk with her about anything too – absolutely anything, and
:
that is so important in my book.
: Did I not say that I belive in communication? I do. Ok, but communication isn’t just talking – not by a long way. In fact, verbal is often the most mis-leading form of communication – it’s much harder to stop your feelings being broadcast by body language. Actually, you did say that you believed in communication – my point was that I don’t think you really know how to. :
That’s so much BS. You know where to put it – that’s all sex is anyway. A
:
couple should not be having sex, they should be making love to one another.
:
Ok, I’m a virgin, but even I’m not naive enough to think that I basically
:
know about sex – I don’t, not by a long way.
: I know more than just where to ‘put it’. Love making is more than just : pumping away. It is the holding, the kissing, the caressing, the : talking, the knowing that you love each other, the flower petals : spread over the bed, the smell of each other, and the knowing that you : are giving your partner pleasure. I am more concerned about giving my : partner pleasure than enjoying it myself. Doh! You watch too many movies, and read too many books. Do yourself a favour and drop all this silly perceptions about how you think it should be. The bottom line is that you won’t know until you have been there – and neither will I. :
I have a lot of deep-seated fear about doing it for the first time – I have
:
talked with her about that, and although we haven’t done that as yet, we
:
have built a great deal of intimacy and understanding by talking things
:
out.
: I do too. I agree with your plan. I stress communication too. Ok. Would it surprise you to know that the first time she and I discussed this was over the phone - 1000s of miles apart? Easier? ha – I don’t think so, it was damn hard but she put my mind at ease from so far away. :
Personally, I don’t think I want my first time to be with another virgin –
:
maybe it’s because of my fears, that I want a woman who can to some extent
:
"control" what happens. Anyways, I’ve never heard anyone tell me that
:
their first time was wonderful.
: The first time may not be wonderful, but it is always special. You : will always remember your first time the rest of your life. The : fumbling around, the embarrasment, the joy of giving away such a : special gift, your virginity, and the fulfillment of doing it. Ok, I’ve also heard the first time being described as boring, an anti-climax. Me, I’m less concerned about losing my virginity as I am about finding someone I feel right with, someone who I love and who loves me back. :
One more thing - I ain’t going to wait until the honeymoon to see if I’m
:
sexually compatible with someone – I just don’t believe the "you woman, me
:
man" thing is an indication of compatibility.
: Then I think that your wedding night will be special but not as : special as it could be. Mmm. Good Plan. Wait until you are married, then find out that sexuality wise she doesn’t do it for you, she doesn’t set you off, turn you on, whatever. Most people I know consider me pretty old fashioned – but to me there just seems no sense in waiting till I get married. I need to know if she is the right person, and that includes our love making. :
Don’t say you believe in communication until you are in that position – you
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may find you don’t know how to communicate your thoughts, wishes, desires –
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then where will you be.
: The relationship comes first. If there is no communication then the : relationship wont last. If sex was involved before good communication : was established then the sex was wasted. Another good reasonto wait. Yeah, okay. Eric’s point was that many couples have real difficulty in discussing the sexual side of their relationship. About waiting though. I’ve waited and I’m very glad I have, I have had opportunities in and out of relationships but it didn’t feel "right". I value it too, because when I do "give in" then the person I lose it to will know for sure how much they mean to me. :
Bob, if you really think you are going to learn your partner’s likes and
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dislikes regarding sex in just 1 or 2 weeks then I think you oughta take a
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long look at your beliefs.
: LIke I said, how is an inexperienced woman going to know what she : likes, unless she masturbates. I would hope that she would be : comfortable in communicating to me what she does that she likes when : she does that. I would then make that part of our lovemaking. if she : doesn’t masturbate then we will both be learning, wont we? Double Doh!!! I think you will find it will take a long time, years maybe, before you both know what one another likes – if you doesn’t then I think your love making will be very boring after a short while. :
Oh, of course you aren’t. What the hell was that list at the top for? She
:
must not be…and she must be… Give us all a break.
: So. Everyone has things that they look for in a mate. You too I see. : Your list is much shorter than mine. But I am sure that you have more : preferences than what you have mentioned. No, actually I don’t. I don’t have a great big list precluding a woman from being a potential mate. You seem to think that after a few dates you you have a relationship – not so. :
Personally I have two requirements for a partner –
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I trust and love her – She trusts and loves me.
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That’s it…ok, so there’s a lot in that, but I’m not gonna rule out some
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one as a potential fututer partnet because she has blonde hair when I
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prefer dark brown hair – that would be silly. Of course, they are a few
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things that can be very annoying - I wouldn’t want a partner who eats
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noisily – I can’t stand that at all.
: I have a preference for hair color but it isn’t a requirement. Is it : so wrong to want a woman that is like yourself? Personally, I think it is wrong – for me, anyways. I want a woman who broadens my life experiences, not one that has lived an exact same life as I have. :
People make mistakes Bob – oh, of course, not you though, huh?
: Not in this area. I was once propositioned by a married woman, I got : her marriage counceling. It didn’t help but I did do the right thing. Mmm. I had a relationship with a married woman – in the end she decided to stay with for a very stupid, yet understandable reason. I had another married woman attempt to pick me up in a bar – I listened to her pour her heart out and we became very good friends, then 3 years later she found out her husband was cheating on her big time, and left him. A year or so later she fell right for me, but I wasn’t interested…unfortunately. :( As for you doing the right thing – are you sure? Maybe it was destiny that you and her should be together? :
I see it like this - a woman who has had previous relationships – yes,
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sexual relations too, is much more likely to know *what* she wants from a
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relationship and will tend to be less fickle.
: That may be true. We all learn from our mistakes. A smart person : doesn’t make those mistakes in the first place. F*** You Bob. That is so smug it’s unreal. Like you have never made any mistakes? HUH? Shit - if you hadn’t made mistakes in the past you wouldn’t be here now preaching to us about how smart you are. This kind of attitude stinks and makes me think I’m wasting my time here. I’ll put this to you – I don’t consider myself dumb, hell I might even be considered smart by some – but I didn’t get smarter or wiser by not making mistakes. I’ve made mistakes and I’ve gotten a lot of pain from those mistakes, but I like to think I am a better person for it. : I am into romantic poetry and song, spontaneous flower giving, little : gifts for no reason except that I love my mate, picnics, long walks, : just talking, back rubs, quiet dinners out in some out of the way : restaurant, ballroom dancing, holding open her door, picking up the : tab, fireplaces, wine, etc. This is just what I can think of this : moment. i am sure that I can think up more. Have I made my point? Ok, most of that sounds as though it could be romantic. What this "picking up the tab" though? Why do you consider paying for her to be romantic? As for holding the door open, I consider that good manners and would do it for any woman or even a guy who is, sorry, appears, older than I. Respect and courtesy. :
Desperate man will scare a woman away quicker than anything else – that is
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100% guaranteed.
: Well, I guess I have figured that out, the hard way. Yeah. So change it. Don’t be so desperate, don’t make your life revolve around finding someone. Women can smell desperation a mile off, and they don’t like it, because the attention of a desperate man is just that – he won’t ever be able to make her feel special. :
Bob, you really are a sad case in my opinion. Ever heard of an open mind?
: Yes, I have. But I think that I am going to stick to finding someone : in my church. Then it is a non-issue. So you have heard of it, yet you fail to be able to open yours. Closed mind, closed heart. :
Shit happens, as they say.
: Quite often to me. Wallow in your pathetic self-pity if you must – DON’T push it on us, we don’t need it. : All my offers to start an … read more »
Response:
Melissa O’Brien <R…@concentric.net
wrote: Way to go, Eric – for the most part. But I have to take issue with both you and Bob on one point, i.e., the stereotype that women don’t go for nice guys. The problem is that "nice" is far too often a euphemism for "dull." And few people, male or female, are attracted to dullness.This is no more or less true for women than for men.As a woman to whom the MOST important quality in a guy is niceness, I feel I have to speak up for all of us women who are sick and tired of being told that our lack of attraction to the "nice" guy is our fault because at heart we all want to be dominated and abused.Not so. I can attest to the fact that there are plenty of nice guys out there who are also interesting and therefore attractive.
Well said. I have only _ever_ dated nice guys, that is why everyone who I have ever dated (since I was 15), evolved into a relationship of a minimum of a year and a half. I have never given jerks the time of day and never will.
Response:
Bob,no offense intended, but you’re living in a romance novel.Love will conquer all? Nice girls wait until marriage? The reality is so much more complex and interesting. On the one hand you say how much you want to get married, but your actions speak differently, You narrow the pool of possible candidates almost to zero, and the few there are, you will date only if they agree not to see anyone else from the word go, You come across in your messages as though you have a superiority complex, although it seems to me your unwillingness to accept reality is more the result of insecurity, not arrogance.My impression is that you’re setting these extremely unrealistic standards in order to avoid having to risk the rejection you – and all the rest of us – have experienced in the past. And when you do get rejected, you blame it on everyone but yourself, saying that the girls you’ve dated were too fickle and had no loyalty. Darla was right: they weren’t fickle, they just discovered they didn’t like you. That is entirely their right, and it is simply a reality that all of us have to deal with from time to time.After all, you do quite a lot of that yourself. If the hostile, rigid, inflexible, harshly judgmental, intolerant tone of your messages is anything to go by, those girls were not fickle or disloyal, your attitude and demands drove them away. Yes, you. Stop blaming them, society, and your grade-school classmates and take some responsibility for yourself. The question is, why? Instead of spending so much time seeking a Christian, white, thin virgin in her 30’s who will forsake all other men from the moment you first ask her out, spend some time, as Darla suggested, in introspection. Try to understand your motives. All of us can attest to the difficulty of overcoming shyness and low self-esteem, but the first, and probably biggest, step is self-understanding. I highly recommend counseling. And let us not forget that you have a good example in Christian tradition, according to which Jesus himself was able to look past Mary Magdalene’s prostitution.Not that I’m comparing your definition of "loose" women to prostitutes. A person’s worth is not determined by how many – or how few – lovers they’ve had. And while we’re talking about the sexual aspect, let me also say that the actual practice of openness and communication is far more difficult than the promise.One of the great benefits of dating is that it helps shape those skills. They don’t just happen on your wedding night, no matter how good your intentions.The way you’re approaching marriage reminds me of the way I approach what I know will be a difficult conversation: I promise myself I’ll behave this way or that, I plan out and practically memorize what I’ll say, and the other person conveniently cooperates – in my mind. The difference between my vision and the reality of the conversation, though, and it is frequently great, is that the one involves only one person and the other involves two, and in reality, the other person surprisingly doesn’t follow my mental script.Lastly, I would also like to say that you have an example of tolerance and understanding in the people who’ve taken the time to respond constructively to you in spite of the fact that you have – unintentionally, I know – insulted all those of us who fall outside your narrow and numerous parameters of acceptability.You’ve gotten an awful lot of good advice from the people who’ve responded to you here, Bob; don’t close your mind to it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -lov…@aa.washington.edu (Bob Lovell) wrote:
Darla J <Dar…@mindlink.bc.ca wrote: Get over the desperation? Couldn’t have said it better. I am desperate due to lack of sucess. If I had more sucess in my love life I wouldn’t be so desperate. I am about over the pain of my recent loss. Couldn’t have said it better. The first time is often clumsy, which is not tremendously "special". See my latest response to Eric concerning this. There is a difference between ’special’ and ‘wonderful’. And I list why. I would repeat the "get real" comment here. A truly spiritual relationship will be based on both common values _and_ the open-mindedness to accept other points of view. You are severely restricting your opportunities here. There are many "good" people who don’t attend church, but may still share your spiritual beliefs. Where are they? Do you know? Tell me? Two dates in junior high does not a girlfriend make. In fact, I’d barely say that it rates as an acquaintance. Being bitter and twisted about the actions of a 14 year old is hardly the basis for a successful relationship at 33. I have forgiven her. She got hers too. She became obese, a smoker, and loose. But how can I forget what she did to me? People are all fickle and women seem more so. I’d have to contest that. All 14 year olds are fickle. _Any_ person can be fickle…it seems to me that males are the ones who have been stereotyped to prefer one-night stands and avoid commitment 
. Eric wrote that. I am not the one night stand type. Re. my willingness to wait untiil marriage. I am not a heart breaker. But the women I love end up breaking mine. Yup. That’s how it works. Perhaps you are expecting a little much? How about loyalty and integrity? How can you have so much invested in someone that you have only dated for 2 weeks, that you suffer pain and betrayal? Perhaps some of your confusion arises from the fact that your concept of "dating" is significantly more serious than most people’s. When I date I only date one girl at a time. ie I have integrity and loyalty. Next time I will ask up front that the dating be exclusive from day one. If she want to date someone else while dating me then she will have to tell me first. No one, male or female, can build (or attract) a relationship while in "desperate mode". Then how am i to do it? My advice is….i-n-t-r-o-s-p-e-c-t-i-o-n (and I don’t mean taking an inventory of your assets). May I recommend the book Journey of the Heart by John Welwood? I’ll look it up. Bob Lovell lov…@aa.washington.edu Junior in Aeronautical and Astronautical Engineering University of Washington, Seattle, Wa.
Response:
In lov…@aa.washington.edu (Bob Lovell) writes:
Martin L Baker <m…@rekab.demon.co.uk wrote: Oh Bob, you make me laugh you do. GET REAL. The woman coming into my life in a big way now, is a little over weight, has one other place on her body peirced except the ears and is quite far from being a virgin. I’m a little overweight too and I am a virgin. So what? It doesn’t matter because – "She rings my bell", that’s a term I heard recently and I like it alot. This new woman does just that to me – whenever I talk with her, whenever I think of her – my "bell", my heart, rings. I have mentioned that there is a difference between being a little overweight and being obese. As for your love, I am happy for you and her. I hope that things work out for you.
What’s the matter with having some physical standards for a person? I mean we all have non-physical standards for people we would like to be (or are) involved with. Why not physical? I’m really at a loose for why this is bad? Paul Johnson Charlotte NC, as exciting as a trip to the bank http://www.vnet.net/users/pjohnson/index.html "Power tools are the key to any woman’s heart" – Leslie Harpold ———————————————————————— Planned Parenthood of Charlotte NC (1-800-438-1019) 1341 E. Morehead Street & 4822 Albemarle Road ————————————————————————
Response:
On Tue, 7 May 1996 12:35:53 GMT, you wrote:
Tattoos can be removed,
But it leaves a scar.
weight can change.
Huh? There is a lot of evidence that obesity is genetic. I don’t care if a woman has a few extra pounds. I dated a woman that was 5′2" and 145#. She was comfortable with her weight and so was I. There is a big difference between being a little over weight and obese.
It is their body to do with as they wish.
Isn’t the body the temple of God? Do you spray paint grafiti in a church?
Do birth marks count as tattoos?
No
1) read above 2) some guys find previous kids a real stumbling block. Funny how we all want the children to genetically be ours. That sort of attitude can get the world overrun with people. However, this is a real stumbling block; but as you age; you are not going to have the option.
I don’t want a lot of kids. Just one or two is fine. If a multiple happens then it happens. It is the genetic link to a man’s kids that makes him want to stick around and support them. It is an instinct that can be overridden. Re: adoption, Brady bunch families, etc. Also there is more than just the Earth to live on. Why do you think I am studying Aero and Astro Engineering? My business goal in life is to help bring to the world cheap access to space. "It’s raining soup out there. We need to build soupbowls."
Oh my. That is a lot to ask for. I tend to agree on one point with a friend of mine. Some of us are not ready for relationships; not willing and so we reject life till our 20’s or 30’s. The majority of people however experiment and search for them- selves. They feel passionate and they call it love; and later find out that it was not love. They make mistakes from ignorance and lonliness and desperation. Are you good enough to cast the first stone? Goodness and strength of heart often come from surviving the things that we go thru in life. Being good does not mean that all of your actions will be just and true (in hindsight).
I used to be a police officer. 8 years in the Air Force. I wont kill. I am also a forgiving person. But that doesn’t mean that I want to embrace someone that has made a mess out of their life. I will help them but not marry them. If there is one thing that really gets my goat up is abuse towards women. If I ever walk into a situation where a woman or girl is being abused or raped I will be very irrational, I wont kill the SOB but he wont be feeling very good for a while.
As much as it is your choice; I can’t agree one bit with the people who say that the non-whites "should only breed with their own kind/race". That sort of remark goes hand in hand with white supremist KKK or religous right dogma that shows severe ignorance and an us versus them idiology that is being powered by fear. It is such garbage that allowed Columbous to slaughter the natives. After all, they had no soul, they were not human. It is that very arguement that allows us to turn the enemy into non-humans; so that we may kill them without remorse. Judge others if you feel fit to be judged yourself.
I am not a racist. I just feel more comfortable with relationships with women who are of my background. I have on occasion been attracted to women of other backgrounds. But I didn’t persue them. One of them didn’t want me to persue her.
The funny thing is that every guy I know who did not have sex until after his mid. 20’s; was not capable on the session.
And it will take love, kindness, honesty, and communication to get through that. Isn’t that what a marriage is really based on?
My experience is also that you will not get to know someone to any extent for many months. For example it took the better part of half a year to find out that my friend had been raped/abused by relatives/family when she was just a teenager. In fact she had an abortion. What would this make her in your book? Would you be an old testiment god who kills the unclean? By everthing that you said; you would damm my friend and reject her. Why?
See above for my views on rape. I could date a rape victim if she was ready and had few if any experiences other than the rape.
It takes years according to the various studies. Women usually don’t enjoy sex until they get into their 30’s; this can be speed up greatly if they masturbate. Talking to each other takes a heck of a long time. You can have sex with a stranger and enjoy/be thrilled by it all. But to talk to someone about it is not something that many couples can do. They can talk to their friends; but not to their lover. Expect the process of getting to know someone to take decades.
Isn’t that called a marriage?
Great. But it is not that easy. If I told you to find the worlds best tasting food; how would you do it? That is just finding what you consider to be the best. Now how about something that you and someone else like? As someone said; if a relationship was as simple as the physical act of sex; there would be nothing to learn about the other person.
I don’t want to choose a mate on the basis of how good in bed they are. If that was my only qualification I would have been married and divorced as many time as Elizabeth Taylor!
I scared away too many women because just their talking to me; made me feel as if there was some sort of relationship; that was how starved I was and how little I know about friendships and relationships.
I think you hit it one the head. This is what my lineliness has done to me. Ladies, if you are reading this. Take the time to find out a guys motives before you start dating and make clear your intentions.
No. Sugar tastes great. It will always taste great. How much of it can you eat? What would there result be on your teeth and body? Women generally have a very different experience than men. When you were 15 did you have 18 year olds trying to date you; seduce you? I can think of many events where I know guys from 20 to 36 falling all over 19 year old women.
Because they are more likely to be inexperienced. What nice guy wants a floozy?
The experience is more like: They spend their time chasing what is fun and exciting. The side effect being that some guys like that are abusers and
No Sh*t! A real man doesn’t take advantage of women. A real man doesn’t get to know a woman long enough to have sex with her then leave her. A real man believes in chivalry. A real man is always a gentleman. A real man is honest. A real man has integrity. I could go on. Why don’t women want real men?
some of them can’t contribute one little bit to a relationship. In short, women chase what looks great and wonderfull; but in the end; they have as much as cotton candy in their arms; it is sweet and wonderfull and full of hot air. It takes time to learn time; time to learn to avoid going for what looks and acts great and exciting.
See below.
Nice word "ruined". What happens if she is divorced but he took the kids? Is he "ruined"? Is she still "ruined"?
Yep. I haven’t made those mistakes. I tried to think ahead. I shouldn’t be penalized for that.
What is your real issue? Is it the fact that she has had sex? Has had kids? Is not perfect and made a mistake? Remember, it was not she who forced the marriage; both of them thought that it was the right thing to do.
Mainly the sex. I don’t want to be compaired to some other guy and found lacking. Especially since I would be a ‘newby’. Disease is a concern too.
Because our $#@%@#%@#%$ society is screwed up. All of this idiocy of the guys supposing to be "experienced" and yet the women are supposed to be virgins. Now how to do the guys get the experience?
I hate the double standard. Men and women should both wait. If more kids would wait there would be less teenage pregnancy, high school dropouts, and disease.
We have a society where women get hit on by men and hit on and hit on and if they make so much as one little mistake; by your "requirements" they are cast down/out. In the past women have been little more than baby factories who took care of the house. Any ambition which they had directly challenged his. They had to be brainless, ambitionless, play- things to make the guys happy. Basically they had to play a role and that role did not allow them to be their own selves. That was made clear by some feminists many decades ago. A woman’s choice was to marry after highschool; or go to university/college and seek "a better man". At no did anyone think that they wanted education for its own sake; or for themselves. Why do we still have the joke about women working on their MRS degree at school? The whole system is still setup to screw women for doing or not doing.
I am not a sexist either.I have no problem with ambitious women. They can be a little intimidating though because they overdo it. There is a wide gulf between chivalry and chauvinism. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
You don’t have to get more desperate. Escape is thru realizing that you are not defined by a relationship or a lack of one in your life. You do not need someone else to be complete. However, you do have a lot to offer someone; and thru that you can express yourself in ways that you could not do alone. But as long as you define your life as the lack of a relationship; you will not offer much when you get into one. Your role in a relationship is not "the other half"; it is as a partner; contributing who you are. Ideally, what you offer will not be tied to a hunk of desperation. What sort of relationship thrives if everyone is afraid of being alone? How truthfull are people if they live in constant fear of ruining the lives of
… read more »
Response:
lov…@aa.washington.edu (Bob Lovell) wrote:
Two dates in junior high does not a girlfriend make. In fact, I’d barely say that it rates as an acquaintance. Being bitter and twisted about the actions of a 14 year old is hardly the basis for a successful relationship at 33. I have forgiven her. She got hers too. She became obese, a smoker, and loose. But how can I forget what she did to me?
Call me a glutton for punishment, but I’m going to try this again. She didn’t do anything to you. She was 14. You were 14. You went on 2 dates. Unless she handcuffed you to the flag pole naked and threw tomatoes at you, she did nothing wrong. All she did was find out that she did not like you. That is not a sin. That is reality. As your messages are clearly indicating, you are not attracted to everyone. Why do you expect them to be attracted to you? Maybe she is turned off by guys that cut their hair too short, in the same way that you are turned off by "floozies".
Yup. That’s how it works. Perhaps you are expecting a little much? How about loyalty and integrity?
That is exactly my point. Dating requires loyalty to oneself first and foremost. The intent of dating is to find out if you like the other person. Then, _if_ you do, you will establish a _relationship_ at which point you will then and only then, have a loyalty to the other person. Someone who went on a couple of dates with a person, found out that they were not compatible and _continued_ dating the person anyways, would truly be a person without loyalty (to themselves) and without integrity.
How can you have so much invested in someone that you have only dated for 2 weeks, that you suffer pain and betrayal? Perhaps some of your confusion arises from the fact that your concept of "dating" is significantly more serious than most people’s. When I date I only date one girl at a time. ie I have integrity and loyalty. Next time I will ask up front that the dating be exclusive from day one. If she want to date someone else while dating me then she will have to tell me first.
Personally, I agree with the concept of dating only one person at a time, though I understand that I am in the minority. Nonetheless, you missed my original point, so I will try to make it again. The best I can do is use an analogy. If you bought a scratch & win lottery ticket and scratched it as you were leaving the store, only to find that you had not won anything, would you suffer intense disappointment, weep in bitterness, graduate to anger at the unfairness of the system and then vow to a life of poverty because money never comes when you really want it? This is an exaggerated response to an everyday occurrence and it appears from your message that you seem to be exaggerating the commitment implied when you go on a date (exclusive or not). I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think that dating etiquette requires one to officially "break up" after a couple of dates (up to 6 or so!?!). I believe the policy is to simply either stop asking or stop accepting (I’ve never actually been in the situation to do it, but I’ve certainly observed the phenomenon). Perhaps you were expecting different rules?
No one, male or female, can build (or attract) a relationship while in "desperate mode". Then how am i to do it?
Listen. Listen to the women you meet. Listen to the people in this newsgroup. Listen to your therapist. Stop rationalizing your behavior. Just because you plan to put rose petals on your honeymoon bed, it does not make you a "nice" guy. Based on your coarse response to Brenda whats-her-name from junior high, I would say that your "niceness" is decidedly in question. Not very spiritual or forgiving. Next time you are in church, ask your reverend/minister/rabbi/whatever about tolerance and forgiveness. Both are very attractive traits.
Response:
In article <4mol7b$…@nntp4.u.washington.edu
lov…@aa.washington.edu (Bob Lovell) writes: On Tue, 7 May 1996 12:35:53 GMT, Eric Praetzel wrote: It is their body to do with as they wish. Isn’t the body the temple of God? Do you spray paint grafiti in a church?
I’m actually mostly agnostic. I don’t see any reason why anyone would want to befuddle their lives with gods, devils, fairies, pixies …. But I subscribe to the belief that all which we own in this world is our body; and we only have temporary usage until it is returned to the soil. We express ourselves thru what we do; what we wear and how we mutilate ourselves. We’ve been doing that for thousands of years in terms of painting ourselves, using perfume, scaring, tatoos, etc. We learn, we grow, we make mistakes and none of us are the same. So while I would never tatoo myself, my choice in someone would not be limited by a tatoo or [usually] what they have done in the past.
It is the genetic link to a man’s kids that makes him want to stick around and support them. It is an instinct that can be overridden. Re:
Silly me; I’m in it for the relationship with the partner. The kids are yet another expression of myself; in a way art. They are a continuation; a legacy which I pass on. They would be a link to the future that I have intimate control over. If I were a Thomas Jefferson I could leave something that would influence society for generations. If I were a father or grandfather I would influence a small number of people for just 2 generations; or perhaps more.
I used to be a police officer. 8 years in the Air Force. I wont kill.
Hmm. I’ve talked to 2 women that put restraining orders against their boyfriend cops and another who very quickly moved out because upon moving in with him; she seemed to become some sort of property of his. I can look at the basic psychology studies which go to show that people who think that they are in positions of authority; very quickly betray that. If World War II taught us nothing it should be that ordinary people will do horrific things in the name of authority and saving their own lives. I’m saying that because I would never define myself by what job I do. Who I am is expressed partly thru the job. Just call me a cynic for looking at the recent past to see what cops and priests do to defenseless people.
I am also a forgiving person. But that doesn’t mean that I want to embrace someone that has made a mess out of their life. I will help them but not marry them.
Now that is the better way to define yourself. I doubt that there are many of us who would sacrifice everything, to help others. We are not all saints. It is good to know our limits; so that we may accept them and not punish ourselves for not being perfect.
I am not a racist. I just feel more comfortable with relationships with women who are of my background.
They call this a shared world view. People who share a view of the world; of how it works, what drives it, and their role in the world; are most likely to marry because they understand each other at some basic level. That is also called the small town mentality because people in a small town will often subscribe to the same set of ideals. In reality, they typically do that to fit in and be accepted.
See above for my views on rape. I could date a rape victim if she was ready and had few if any experiences other than the rape.
I’m really curious about this. Why? Is it the number of times she has had sex? Or is it the number of partners? Are you expecting to play some role in her life; _the_one_that_brings_amazing_orgasms_ ?
scared away too many women because just their talking to me; made me feel as if there was some sort of relationship; that was how starved I was and how little I know about friendships and relationships. I think you hit it one the head. This is what my lineliness has done to me. Ladies, if you are reading this. Take the time to find out a guys motives before you start dating and make clear your intentions.
But do you know your own motives? Take some time for yourself. Pick up some hobbies that involve women; get women as friends; as close friends; as girlfriends. Then you will learn more about yourself than you will about them. That will give you the experience to know what you want and need. It should also take quite a bit of the edge off of the desperation. Mind you; it will drive you nuts in ways. I’ve been at dances where the women are really friendly; and hug; and are eager to dance; and they are also married with kids and not really looking for someone. But when they have a good time; they like to let you know; and I’d rather have a hug than a handshake.
Women generally have a very different experience than men. When you were 15 did you have 18 year olds trying to date you; seduce you? I can think of many events where I know guys from 20 to 36 falling all over 19 year old women. Because they are more likely to be inexperienced. What nice guy wants a floozy?
Hold on. I said that guys were "falling all over" these women. Are you blaming the women? They are in the position where guys are going to hit on them. If they are good looking or make eye contact or smile; then they will have not shortage of guys (or so it seems). Should we blame women for smiling? for wearing a dress that is too tight? Paradoxically these women reject nearly every guy they meet; to them it seems as if out of millions of guys; they can’t find one. Compare that to guys who I know; who can rarely get dates and then as some guys have posted; all of a sudden things work out and they are considering marriage.
. A real man believes in chivalry. A real man is always a gentleman. A real man is honest. A real man has integrity. I could go on. Why don’t women want real men?
In the words of another Eric; women have emotions; they are attracted to men; and the fastest way into a relationship is to turn on those emotions. Guys learn how to do that; and that is the typical relationship around us. They are not formed because the guy was nice and sweet and good to her. How many people go from friendship to relationship? That is what you are talking about; a slow movement. Very few of us wait for things; we fall in love and always expect to find someone thru this "falling". We form an impression of what love is based upon quickly falling in and out of love and we seem to avoid turning a friendship into a relationship because all of the quick love affairs which we have had; often end in ruin.
I hate the double standard. Men and women should both wait. If more kids would wait there would be less teenage pregnancy, high school dropouts, and disease.
I don’t think that we will ever get people to wait. Sex is easy; sex can be fun; people will do it. Sex is a simple physical function. If you lick cold steel in the winter your tongue will stick. If you have sex you risk all sorts of physical an emotional problems. Freedom is thru education not blind rules which will never be obeyed. If people were more complete; if they had confidence; if they knew what a good relationship was then they would not settle for less. My hope is that getting rid of the old gender roles will be the first good step to leaving behind the _I’m_not_complete_without_a_man/woman_ in my life. If we don’t raise a generation of insecure and needy kids, then they will be better able to form real friendships and not desperately seek out "relationships" to give them what a good friendship would.
Someone to laugh with in the good times. I am really a pretty romantic person. Why don’t women appreciate that anymore?
But they do. It is just that a whole bunch of other conditions have to be met first. You have to meet someone who you can get along with; you have to be comfortable wtih them; get to know them and then share the experiences that allow you to laugh. In terms of a satisfying relationship; you need even more conditions to be met. Unfortunately it is not an easy road. Eric Praetzel, http://sunee.uwaterloo.ca/~praetzel
Response:
Bob Lovell (lov…@aa.washington.edu) wrote:
: praet…@maxwell.uwaterloo.ca (Eric Praetzel) wrote: : : What do I want in a woman? More correctly here is what I don’t want. I : don’t want a woman who is overweight, smokes, has tattoos, parts of : her body except her ears pierced, a single parent. What I require is : tha she be white because I am white. I am a virgin. She must also be a : virgin or only have had one or two lovers. She must have good values. : Are these too much to ask for? Oh Bob, you make me laugh you do. GET REAL. The woman coming into my life in a big way now, is a little over weight, has one other place on her body peirced except the ears and is quite far from being a virgin. I’m a little overweight too and I am a virgin. So what? It doesn’t matter because – "She rings my bell", that’s a term I heard recently and I like it alot. This new woman does just that to me – whenever I talk with her, whenever I think of her – my "bell", my heart, rings. Hell, and I can talk with her about anything too – absolutely anything, and that is so important in my book. : So I will fumble around the first few times. If she is also : inexperienced she will too. However, I am not ignorant of anatomy. I : know what is involved in sex. That is what the honeymoon is for. To : get used to each other physically. That’s so much BS. You know where to put it – that’s all sex is anyway. A couple should not be having sex, they should be making love to one another. Ok, I’m a virgin, but even I’m not naive enough to think that I basically know about sex – I don’t, not by a long way. I have a lot of deep-seated fear about doing it for the first time – I have talked with her about that, and although we haven’t done that as yet, we have built a great deal of intimacy and understanding by talking things out. Personally, I don’t think I want my first time to be with another virgin – maybe it’s because of my fears, that I want a woman who can to some extent "control" what happens. Anyways, I’ve never heard anyone tell me that their first time was wonderful. One more thing - I ain’t going to wait until the honeymoon to see if I’m sexually compatible with someone – I just don’t believe the "you woman, me man" thing is an indication of compatibility. : How can two inexperienced people have bad habbits? Like I said, the : honnymoon is for determining what each partner likes and dislikes. I : believe in communication. Don’t say you believe in communication until you are in that position – you may find you don’t know how to communicate your thoughts, wishes, desires – then where will you be. Bob, if you really think you are going to learn your partner’s likes and dislikes regarding sex in just 1 or 2 weeks then I think you oughta take a long look at your beliefs. : I don’t think that I am overly picky. It is just that when I finally : get a girl to go out with me I loose her soon there after. They always : find someone else. Oh, of course you aren’t. What the hell was that list at the top for? She must not be…and she must be… Give us all a break. Personally I have two requirements for a partner – I trust and love her – She trusts and loves me. That’s it…ok, so there’s a lot in that, but I’m not gonna rule out some one as a potential fututer partnet because she has blonde hair when I prefer dark brown hair – that would be silly. Of course, they are a few things that can be very annoying - I wouldn’t want a partner who eats noisily – I can’t stand that at all. : And when they get tired of the exciting cads they seek out the nice : guys. But by then they are ruined, ie divorced, single parents, had a : lot of lovers,etc. Why can’t the girls skip all of that and try to : find the nice guys first? Guys like me. I am very romantic. I am : always a gentleman. I still believe in chivalry. Do women want these : qualities in a man anymore? So I am not Mr. G.Q. Beefcake. Who is? People make mistakes Bob – oh, of course, not you though, huh? I see it like this - a woman who has had previous relationships – yes, sexual relations too, is much more likely to know *what* she wants from a relationship and will tend to be less fickle. You are romantic? Really? Mmm…there are quite a few different interpretations of what is and what is not "romantic". You may be romantic by your standards, but your "standards" might not be anyone else’s standard. : So I am despirate. I will be more despirate as time goes on. I am : getting older. I think that I have lost my chance to find an : inexperienced woman. Not that I ever really had that chance. Desperate man will scare a woman away quicker than anything else – that is 100% guaranteed. : I don’t try to convert others. If a person wants to know my beliefs I : am willing to tell them. Otherwise I don’t bring it up. Values are a : different story. I don’t think that I am going to date anyone outside : of my church in the future anyways. Pickings are really slim though. Bob, you really are a sad case in my opinion. Ever heard of an open mind? Ok, I don’t believe in any religion, but my girlfriend does – so what! I am going to spend Christmas with her and her family and it is tradition that they go to midnight mass on Christmas Eve – and I will go to, she didn’t ask, she didn’t have to. I respect her beliefs and the beliefs of her family. What I wouldn’t ever do though is date someone who has a totally closed mind – ie, a girl with your personality. : I’ve tried that. I was writing to three women from the Slovak : Republic. I assume that they all found other guys to write to because : they stopped writing to me after only a couple of letters. Shit happens, as they say. I’ve emailed with load of women, some I still am in touch with, others have gone by-the-by. The point Bob, is that I never started emailing with any of them with an express intention of looking for romance – even though I haven’t been in a relationship for over 4 years – I’m only nearly 24 now by the way. I got really close to one of the girls I was emailing with, but it didn’t feel right, we both backed off for a while and now we are emailing again, not as much, but I feel we will always be good friends. : I blame everyone I have ever come into contact with. Especially those : who gave me grief when I was growing up. I was the little shy guy that : always got picked on in school. I didn’t do well in sports. I : certainly didn’t do well on the dating scene. Maybe my life would have : been different if I wasn’t treated so badly by my peers in school. : Maybe my life would have been differrent if I have had a girlfriend in : school. But I didn’t. Yeah, I get it. It’s everyones fault but my own… :
Perhaps you just never met anyone with whom things
:
worked out.
: : No duh? Would I be here if I did? You missed Eric’s points completely. Things can work out between two people, but that doesn’t automatically mean that they will be together for ever. People change, situations change. : I have goals. I have a plan for my life. It doesn’t just include being : married. I will probably do well financially. Engineers make decent : money. But to do well in life only financially is pretty lonely. I : want to share my life with someone. Is that so bad? No, it’s not bad. What is VERY bad is that you have a picture etched in your mind of the person who you want to spend your life with, and with that sort of approach you ain’t never getting married. : After just having my heart broken, thanks Alicia, I am feeling pretty : bad. I will get over it some day. But I begrudge all of the time I : will loose in being miserable. I will be 34 when I graduate and money Then stop being miserable about it, for goodness sake. You know that because you are so desperate you fall in love way to quickly and that is what leaves you so open to pain and heart break. And you are so desperate because you are putting too much importance on findind the perfect woman for yourself – I’ll tell you a secret, she don’t exist. : will be more available I will then be more active socially. But by : then I seriously doubt that I could attract an inexperienced woman. I : will just have to settle for an experienced one I guess. There goes : one dream. How many more dreams am I going to loose? Judging by the things you have said, you will lose all your dreams – hell those aren’t dreams - they are great expectations and mostly unrealistic too. HTH Martin.
Response:
Bob Lovell (lov…@aa.washington.edu) wrote:
: I am a great guy. I’ll send you my bio if you want : it. I’m descent looking too. Why aren’t women attracted to me? I don’t : want to be alone anymore. What am I supposed to do? I think a lot of us asked ourselves that question. (All of the above questions, actually.) It’s hard to say what you’re supposed to do, because in my case (and in the case of several people I know, men and women alike), we really didn’t *try* to do anything. I spent many years looking for love, never had a steady until I was 22, and when that broke off I thought it might be another 22 years before I found another to mend the hole in my heart (figuratively, of course). : I want my wedding night to be special. That is why I am waiting and am : trying to find women who are also waiting. Is that so bad? I am also a : religious guy and attend church but even there the number of potential : mates is small. Really? When I used to go to church, there seemed to be quite a few women there–I can’t believe that *all* of them were married or otherwise firmly attached. : What is my problem you ask? Shyness and disloyalty from women. My : first girlfriend betrayed me before my very eyes on our second date. : (F**K YOU Brenda H****N.) This was in Jr High. I only had two dates in : high school. Two dates more than I had in high school. My first date was a blind one, when I was about 20. Only twice in my life have I ever asked for a date (and I’m batting .500). The one who accepted later told friends that "(I) drive too slow." Out of that "second date rejection" I gained a little confidence: if that was the worst thing she could say about me, I must be okay. :I didn’t meet my next girlfriend until I was 25. We : lasted a whole two weeks. Then she got tired of me and found another : guy soon afterwards. It took another two years to get another girl. : She too left me for another guy. Another 3 years go by and the same : thing occurs. It’s been two more years and I am tring the e-mail : romance thing and it occurs again. I wish I knew why women are so : fickle. I wish I knew what I am lacking. All I ever get from women is : pain and betrayal. Are there loyal women out there? If so, where are : they? Does anyone have any _real_ suggestions? It seems like some people just attract the same type of people over and over again. That might explain why some women always seem to be around men who treat them like garbage. (This is when all the so-called "nice guys" say "Hey! What about me?? I won’t treat you like that!") Is there something you are (or aren’t) doing which is leading to your feelings of betrayal and distrust? If this is establishing itself as a pattern, *maybe* there’s something related to *you* and not just the women who hurt you. What are you lacking? A little luck, maybe. I never *tried* the e-mail romance thing; it just happened when I wasn’t trying for anything (on Prodigy, in 1992). When I tried, I failed. When I wasn’t trying, there it was. It was, well, really eerie. The first few e-mails were totally harmless, just your basic friendly letters being exchanged. We kept writing back and forth, agreed to meet each other and had a wonderful time. And later this month, we’ll celebrate our fourth wedding anniversary. And yes, for the most part, I’m still shy. Only now I’m shy, lucky and happy. I hope it all works as well for you (and all of you in this gloomy predicament–been there, done that, it sucks). I have spoken to several female friends about "looking for love in all the wrong places." (While I’ve never had much experience in the dating world, and while I’ve only had two LTRs in my life, I’ve always had a lot of female friends. I just never had the guts to ask ‘em out for anything more threatening than lunch.) Most of them seemed to think that my problem (this is when I was in my early 20s and very lonely) was that I was, in fact, trying too hard. That made me look desperate. That made me look like I’d accept *anyone*, under almost *any* terms. Not many women find that terribly attractive–how many of them want to be in relationships with someone who dated them not necessarily because he wanted *her* in particular–but was willing to accept anyone? They want to feel special, desired, treasured (in most cases, so it seems). They can’t feel that way when someone chooses them indiscriminately. Maybe that’s why the "nice guy" seems to strike out so frequently in the field of romance. I don’t know. This is what several women have told me, and it *does* make sense. And it may explain why the good things seem to happen when you’re neither expecting it nor searching desperately for it. — Tim Irvin, zigg…@netgate.net WWW: http://www.netgate.net/~ziggy29/ While you were asleep, the price of gasoline surpassed the U.S. budget deficit. Next up: the U.S. national debt.
Response:
You know, sometimes I wonder if we shouldn’t be trying to find a Reason in something else, something that actually lasts, an Undying Principle. But I don’t know what it is. Something far removed from the heartache, the blood, sweat and tears of this earthly existence. You can sense something of this when the summer stars are shining and it seems like the worlds are calling. I don’t know. There’s got to be something better somewhere in the multiverse. – Stuart
Response:
praet…@maxwell.uwaterloo.ca (Eric Praetzel) wrote:
In article <4mjvi4$…@nntp4.u.washington.edu lov…@aa.washington.edu (Bob Lovell) writes: but I want to have a wife and kids. I want the little house with the white picket fence. I am a great guy. I’ll send you my bio if you want it. I’m descent looking too. Why aren’t women attracted to me? I don’t want to be alone anymore. What am I supposed to do? Get over the desperation?
Couldn’t have said it better.
I want my wedding night to be special. That is why I am waiting and am Oh get real.
Couldn’t have said it better. The first time is often clumsy, which is not tremendously "special".
religious guy and attend church but even there the number of potential mates is small. You have to accept that. If you are picky….
I would repeat the "get real" comment here. A truly spiritual relationship will be based on both common values _and_ the open-mindedness to accept other points of view. You are severely restricting your opportunities here. There are many "good" people who don’t attend church, but may still share your spiritual beliefs.
What is my problem you ask? Shyness and disloyalty from women. My first girlfriend betrayed me before my very eyes on our second date. (F**K YOU Brenda H****N.) This was in Jr High. I only had two dates in Boy do you have a problem. You expect "loyality" with someone you have only been dating for 2 weeks?
Two dates in junior high does not a girlfriend make. In fact, I’d barely say that it rates as an acquaintance. Being bitter and twisted about the actions of a 14 year old is hardly the basis for a successful relationship at 33.
People are all fickle and women seem more so.
I’d have to contest that. All 14 year olds are fickle. _Any_ person can be fickle…it seems to me that males are the ones who have been stereotyped to prefer one-night stands and avoid commitment .
high school. I didn’t meet my next girlfriend until I was 25. We lasted a whole two weeks. Then she got tired of me and found another guy soon afterwards. It took another two years to get another girl. She too left me for another guy. Another 3 years go by and the same thing occurs. It’s been two more years and I am tring the e-mail romance thing and it occurs again. I wish I knew why women are so None of what happened to you shows maliciousness.
Yup. That’s how it works. Perhaps you are expecting a little much?
fickle. I wish I knew what I am lacking. All I ever get from women is pain and betrayal. Are there loyal women out there? If so, where are Sure, mail order them from China or Russia or …. Geees.
How can you have so much invested in someone that you have only dated for 2 weeks, that you suffer pain and betrayal? Perhaps some of your confusion arises from the fact that your concept of "dating" is significantly more serious than most people’s.
Get a hobby, get a life, get some goals. Marriage and kids is a goal? You can’t build a relationship upon that.
No one, male or female, can build (or attract) a relationship while in "desperate mode". My advice is….i-n-t-r-o-s-p-e-c-t-i-o-n (and I don’t mean taking an inventory of your assets). May I recommend the book Journey of the Heart by John Welwood?
Response:
In article <4mjvi4$…@nntp4.u.washington.edu
lov…@aa.washington.edu (Bob Lovell) writes: but I want to have a wife and kids. I want the little house with the white picket fence. I am a great guy. I’ll send you my bio if you want it. I’m descent looking too. Why aren’t women attracted to me? I don’t want to be alone anymore. What am I supposed to do?
Get over the desperation? Consider how many women you are attracted to and drool over in public. Consider that women are raised to whistle, wink, slap bottoms … of men who they are attracted to. Basically, some women probably are attracted; but they will not show it. Only about 11% of the women in the 30 .. 40 age range are single; and they represent a bit under 0.2% of the population. Were you expecting to trip all over single women in your age range? Do you have any additional requirements (weight, height, build, activities, personality, education, not being currently involved)?
I want my wedding night to be special. That is why I am waiting and am
Oh get real. Sex, frankly, is not something overly exciting for quite a while. Unless you are going to wrap yourself up in the myth of the great stud and get all pleasure from orgasm (ignoring your partner) then you are going to run into problems for the first few times and until you can talk to your partner about sex. Do you have any idea how many people can talk to each other about what they do during sex? How many complain about annoying habits of the other? How likely are you going to be to tell your partner that you’d like things done a different way or not at all?
religious guy and attend church but even there the number of potential mates is small.
You have to accept that. If you are picky; if you are going to not go after all of the married and involved ones; then you have to accept that the process is one that takes years. And I don’t mean years at the highschool or university level when most people are still quite immature.
What is my problem you ask? Shyness and disloyalty from women. My first girlfriend betrayed me before my very eyes on our second date. (F**K YOU Brenda H****N.) This was in Jr High. I only had two dates in
Boy do you have a problem. You expect "loyality" with someone you have only been dating for 2 weeks? People are all fickle and women seem more so. In an environment where women are the ones being hit on; they will naturally go for the men who are exciting; ones that they have fun with. I doubt that you ever made it to the stage of agreeing to date exclusively. Your problem is that you are so desperate; and expect so much that the two of you are playing different games. You are looking for a wife and they are just dating you to see if your personalities are even close.
high school. I didn’t meet my next girlfriend until I was 25. We lasted a whole two weeks. Then she got tired of me and found another guy soon afterwards. It took another two years to get another girl. She too left me for another guy. Another 3 years go by and the same thing occurs. It’s been two more years and I am tring the e-mail romance thing and it occurs again. I wish I knew why women are so
Get used to it. It is the name of the game. We have a limited amount of time in our lives and in our days. We spend them with peopel who we get along with. If nothing "clicks" we move on to other people or activities. None of what happened to you shows maliciousness. It is the nature of trying to find the right person thru shallow activities. If you had been meeting these women on a regular basis at an acitivity and come to know each other; then you would be "dating" thru not-so-shallow activities. If you had people like that in your life you would come to understand that there are people who can physically attract you; but whom you would never want to live with. Even consider your choice of religon. I could never tolerate living with anyone who had a religous adjenda of converting others (be they adults or children). Could you tolerate someone else of a different faith? how about someone who does not see a point in gods?
fickle. I wish I knew what I am lacking. All I ever get from women is pain and betrayal. Are there loyal women out there? If so, where are
Sure, mail order them from China or Russia or …. Geees. Which is it? You are blaming the women and you are blaming yourself. Is it both? Is it neither? Perhaps you just never met anyone with whom things worked out. Take a look at some psychology books about relationships and you will find out about the volatility of relationships at the highschool level. Friends and relationships are made to look good; to be part of the crowd. If you don’t offer that; you are probably not going to get into relationships. Get a hobby, get a life, get some goals. Marriage and kids is a goal? You can’t build a relationship upon that. A relationship is between two people; it is not living together because you made a mistake and some law says "thou shalt not divorce". Kids can see beyond the veil of a shallow marriage. They can see a relationship devoid of emotions and love. They can spot parents who feel burdened by their children; parents who blame their kids for trapping them for 20 years. Build yourself into a whole person while looking for a partner. Do not spend your time obsessing on the past; blaming everyone and yourself. Do you see any usefullness of being near someone who is always finding some thing/one to blame? I met a guy like that yesterday and I don’t have any desire to be near him ever again. Eric Praetzel, http://sunee.uwaterloo.ca/~praetzel
Response:
praet…@maxwell.uwaterloo.ca (Eric Praetzel) wrote:
Get over the desperation? Consider how many women you are attracted to and drool over in public. Consider that women are raised to whistle, wink, slap bottoms … of men who they are attracted to. Basically, some women probably are attracted; but they will not show it. Only about 11% of the women in the 30 .. 40 age range are single; and they represent a bit under 0.2% of the population. Were you expecting to trip all over single women in your age range? Do you have any additional requirements (weight, height, build, activities, personality, education, not being currently involved)?
What do I want in a woman? More correctly here is what I don’t want. I don’t want a woman who is overweight, smokes, has tattoos, parts of her body except her ears pierced, a single parent. What I require is tha she be white because I am white. I am a virgin. She must also be a virgin or only have had one or two lovers. She must have good values. Are these too much to ask for?
Oh get real. Sex, frankly, is not something overly exciting for quite a while. Unless you are going to wrap yourself up in the myth of the great stud and get all pleasure from orgasm (ignoring your partner) then you are going to run into problems for the first few times and until you can talk to your partner about sex.
So I will fumble around the first few times. If she is also inexperienced she will too. However, I am not ignorant of anatomy. I know what is involved in sex. That is what the honeymoon is for. To get used to each other physically.
Do you have any idea how many people can talk to each other about what they do during sex? How many complain about annoying habits of the other? How likely are you going to be to tell your partner that you’d like things done a different way or not at all?
How can two inexperienced people have bad habbits? Like I said, the honnymoon is for determining what each partner likes and dislikes. I believe in communication.
You have to accept that. If you are picky; if you are going to not go after all of the married and involved ones; then you have to accept that the process is one that takes years. And I don’t mean years at the highschool or university level when most people are still quite immature.
I don’t think that I am overly picky. It is just that when I finally get a girl to go out with me I loose her soon there after. They always find someone else.
Boy do you have a problem. You expect "loyality" with someone you have only been dating for 2 weeks? People are all fickle and women seem more so. In an environment where women are the ones being hit on; they will naturally go for the men who are exciting; ones that they have fun with.
And when they get tired of the exciting cads they seek out the nice guys. But by then they are ruined, ie divorced, single parents, had a lot of lovers,etc. Why can’t the girls skip all of that and try to find the nice guys first? Guys like me. I am very romantic. I am always a gentleman. I still believe in chivalry. Do women want these qualities in a man anymore? So I am not Mr. G.Q. Beefcake. Who is?
I doubt that you ever made it to the stage of agreeing to date exclusively. Your problem is that you are so desperate; and expect so much that the two of you are playing different games. You are looking for a wife and they are just dating you to see if your personalities are even close.
So I am despirate. I will be more despirate as time goes on. I am getting older. I think that I have lost my chance to find an inexperienced woman. Not that I ever really had that chance.
Get used to it. It is the name of the game. We have a limited amount of time in our lives and in our days. We spend them with peopel who we get along with. If nothing "clicks" we move on to other people or activities. None of what happened to you shows maliciousness. It is the nature of trying to find the right person thru shallow activities. If you had been meeting these women on a regular basis at an acitivity and come to know each other; then you would be "dating" thru not-so-shallow activities. If you had people like that in your life you would come to understand that there are people who can physically attract you; but whom you would never want to live with. Even consider your choice of religon. I could never tolerate living with anyone who had a religous adjenda of converting others (be they adults or children). Could you tolerate someone else of a different faith? how about someone who does not see a point in gods?
I don’t try to convert others. If a person wants to know my beliefs I am willing to tell them. Otherwise I don’t bring it up. Values are a different story. I don’t think that I am going to date anyone outside of my church in the future anyways. Pickings are really slim though.
Sure, mail order them from China or Russia or ….
I’ve tried that. I was writing to three women from the Slovak Republic. I assume that they all found other guys to write to because they stopped writing to me after only a couple of letters.
Which is it? You are blaming the women and you are blaming yourself. Is it both? Is it neither?
I blame everyone I have ever come into contact with. Especially those who gave me grief when I was growing up. I was the little shy guy that always got picked on in school. I didn’t do well in sports. I certainly didn’t do well on the dating scene. Maybe my life would have been different if I wasn’t treated so badly by my peers in school. Maybe my life would have been differrent if I have had a girlfriend in school. But I didn’t.
Perhaps you just never met anyone with whom things worked out.
No duh? Would I be here if I did?
Take a look at some psychology books about relationships and you will find out about the volatility of relationships at the highschool level. Friends and relationships are made to look good; to be part of the crowd. If you don’t offer that; you are probably not going to get into relationships. Get a hobby, get a life, get some goals.
I have goals. I have a plan for my life. It doesn’t just include being married. I will probably do well financially. Engineers make decent money. But to do well in life only financially is pretty lonely. I want to share my life with someone. Is that so bad?
Marriage and kids is a goal? You can’t build a relationship upon that. A relationship is between two people; it is not living together because you made a mistake and some law says "thou shalt not divorce". Kids can see beyond the veil of a shallow marriage. They can see a relationship devoid of emotions and love. They can spot parents who feel burdened by their children; parents who blame their kids for trapping them for 20 years. Build yourself into a whole person while looking for a partner. Do not spend your time obsessing on the past; blaming everyone and yourself. Do you see any usefullness of being near someone who is always finding some thing/one to blame? I met a guy like that yesterday and I don’t have any desire to be near him ever again.
After just having my heart broken, thanks Alicia, I am feeling pretty bad. I will get over it some day. But I begrudge all of the time I will loose in being miserable. I will be 34 when I graduate and money will be more available I will then be more active socially. But by then I seriously doubt that I could attract an inexperienced woman. I will just have to settle for an experienced one I guess. There goes one dream. How many more dreams am I going to loose? Bob Lovell Jr in Aeronautical and Astronautical Engineering University of Washington, Seattle, Wa.
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Well, I am going to be 33 on the 25th of May. I am still a virgin. I want to get married some day but every time I find that special girl she slips away. Why is my luck so bad? What am i supposed to do? I have tried the bar scene, dating services, school, and now the internet. What is left? Must I resign myself living my life alone? I have two younger brothers. They have both been married and have kids. They are both divorced now too. I don’t want to make their mistakes but I want to have a wife and kids. I want the little house with the white picket fence. I am a great guy. I’ll send you my bio if you want it. I’m descent looking too. Why aren’t women attracted to me? I don’t want to be alone anymore. What am I supposed to do? I want my wedding night to be special. That is why I am waiting and am trying to find women who are also waiting. Is that so bad? I am also a religious guy and attend church but even there the number of potential mates is small. What is my problem you ask? Shyness and disloyalty from women. My first girlfriend betrayed me before my very eyes on our second date. (F**K YOU Brenda H****N.) This was in Jr High. I only had two dates in high school. I didn’t meet my next girlfriend until I was 25. We lasted a whole two weeks. Then she got tired of me and found another guy soon afterwards. It took another two years to get another girl. She too left me for another guy. Another 3 years go by and the same thing occurs. It’s been two more years and I am tring the e-mail romance thing and it occurs again. I wish I knew why women are so fickle. I wish I knew what I am lacking. All I ever get from women is pain and betrayal. Are there loyal women out there? If so, where are they? Does anyone have any _real_ suggestions? Bob Lovell lov…@aa.washington.edu Jr in Aeronautical and Astronautical Engineering University of Washington, Seattle, Wa.
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Hi. I like Martin’s response to your post the best. He is very right on what he says. I also wrote a reply, but wanted to read the responses of others before posting up my followup… Here goes… (Also, at the bottom, is Bob Lovell’s post in its entirety… So Bob… You won’t settle for any but a single white woman in her 30s or so who is inexperienced or only has had 1 or 2 lovers in the past? It would be nice to open up to ALL women, women in their different stages, and who are at every stage of experience. First of all, your windows of opportunity broaden. And you also broaden yourself, for you finally say to yourself, LOVE is not based on single inexperienced white women. Oh yes, you also mentioned that you didn’t want an overweight one, no tattoos, etc. Or one with children… Well you know… Just as you have requirements, so also do women… If you would open your mind and open your heart more, then more women might pass through and have a look-see. Believe me… I personally think it would be cool to marry a single mom. The kids are already born, and you’ve got a quick acceleration into your dream. At your age, marrying a woman with children is something really nice to consider… But I don’t know… If you marry a woman with children, you must love the children, too. And I don’t know if you would be willing to do that. If you married her for her alone and refused to love and be responsible for her children, then it would be a sad marriage indeed… And the kids would endure a lot of hardship at your hands… (Statistics say a child is 100 times more likely to be killed by a stepparent than by a natural parent… prolly more likely for abuse too.) You seem rather selfish. Not only that, you also seem rather bitter… Saying ‘f*ck you’ twenty years later to a person who in her awkward adolescence may have made some mistakes, and harboring feelings of sadness and anger at a person who almost twenty years ago in her teenage years only dated you for two weeks… These are indicative of selfishness, inability to open one’s mind and step into the shoes of another, and maybe a good number of other traits that we here on the internet cannot see, but women who have dated you perhaps have seen. I _don’t consider_ (I don’t think anyone does) two weeks dating to be ‘girlfriend’ time. I would say some months of going steady, and a mutual agreement to be boyfriend and girlfriend… Along with a mutual feeling of love – not something one-sided… As a non-white (I am a Chinese man), I resent the thought that you can’t find my Asian sisters good enough for you. So what if you are white and they are not? But you know… It probably is for the best that you don’t want them. You _don’t_ deserve these ladies. If you cannot open your mind, cannot be flexible with your dreams, and cannot accept that love _does not_ come only in one kind of package… Then I would say that you can expect what you are getting. Seriously, if I were a gal, I would not want you as you currently are. If you change, then maybe… Please do note that I am not condemning you. Rather, I am condemning the attitudes and beliefs that I perceive in you. I may very well be wrong in terms of your actual attitudes and beliefs. And even if I am right, you have the potential to change them and become a better person for it. In that case, this post is not a flame, but good advice that you will be happy about in the future. Even if you may feel a little embarrassed about having to be told such advice… You may very well be thankful. Heh, like I deserve praise?!? *grin* Well, best of luck to you. Sincerely, Paul – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -lov…@aa.washington.edu (Bob Lovell) writes:
Well, I am going to be 33 on the 25th of May. I am still a virgin. I want to get married some day but every time I find that special girl she slips away. Why is my luck so bad? What am i supposed to do? I have tried the bar scene, dating services, school, and now the internet. What is left? Must I resign myself living my life alone? I have two younger brothers. They have both been married and have kids. They are both divorced now too. I don’t want to make their mistakes but I want to have a wife and kids. I want the little house with the white picket fence. I am a great guy. I’ll send you my bio if you want it. I’m descent looking too. Why aren’t women attracted to me? I don’t want to be alone anymore. What am I supposed to do? I want my wedding night to be special. That is why I am waiting and am trying to find women who are also waiting. Is that so bad? I am also a religious guy and attend church but even there the number of potential mates is small. What is my problem you ask? Shyness and disloyalty from women. My first girlfriend betrayed me before my very eyes on our second date. (F**K YOU Brenda H****N.) This was in Jr High. I only had two dates in high school. I didn’t meet my next girlfriend until I was 25. We lasted a whole two weeks. Then she got tired of me and found another guy soon afterwards. It took another two years to get another girl. She too left me for another guy. Another 3 years go by and the same thing occurs. It’s been two more years and I am tring the e-mail romance thing and it occurs again. I wish I knew why women are so fickle. I wish I knew what I am lacking. All I ever get from women is pain and betrayal. Are there loyal women out there? If so, where are they? Does anyone have any _real_ suggestions?
| Soc.support.loneliness is a moderated group for providing mutual support | | to those of us who feel alone. No flames, ads, tests or personals please. | | Send mail to ssl-requ…@omega.co.nz to contact the moderators directly. | | The SSL homepage is on the Web at http://www.pacificnet.net/~jkdyson/ssl |
Response:
In article <4mjgl9$…@nntp5.u.washington.edu
, lov…@aa.washington.edu (Bob
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Lovell) writes:
Well, I am going to be 33 on the 25th of May. I am still a virgin. I want to get married some day but every time I find that special girl she slips away. Why is my luck so bad? What is my problem you ask? Shyness and disloyalty from women. My first girlfriend betrayed me before my very eyes on our second date. (F**K YOU Brenda H****N.) This was in Jr High. I only had two dates in high school. I didn’t meet my next girlfriend until I was 25. We lasted a whole two weeks. Then she got tired of me and found another guy soon afterwards. It took another two years to get another girl. She too left me for another guy. Another 3 years go by and the same thing occurs. It’s been two more years and I am tring the e-mail romance thing and it occurs again. I wish I knew why women are so fickle. I wish I knew what I am lacking. All I ever get from women is pain and betrayal. Are there loyal women out there? If so, where are they? Does anyone have any _real_ suggestions?
Bob, It really sounds as though you have a lot of anger against women. You’re 33 years old and you’re still holding a grudge against a girl you had 2 dates with probably 20 years ago. It’s hard for a woman to break through the shell of a man who is so inclined to hate women. It’s hard for a woman to even want to try. The only _real_ suggestion I can give you is to maybe seek counselling to help you let go of some of this anger so that the next woman you connect with won’t wind up feeling that she’s somehow responsible for all of the injustices her sex has visited on you. That’s too much of a burden for a healthy relationship to bear. Oh, and no, there’s nothing wrong with waiting. Sandra | Soc.support.loneliness is a moderated group for providing mutual support | | to those of us who feel alone. No flames, ads, tests or personals please. | | Send mail to ssl-requ…@omega.co.nz to contact the moderators directly. | | The SSL homepage is on the Web at http://www.pacificnet.net/~jkdyson/ssl |
Response:
Well, I am going to be 33 on the 25th of May. I am still a virgin. I want to get married some day but every time I find that special girl she slips away. Why is my luck so bad? What am i supposed to do? I have tried the bar scene, dating services, school, and now the internet. What is left? Must I resign myself living my life alone? I have two younger brothers. They have both been married and have kids. They are both divorced now too. I don’t want to make their mistakes but I want to have a wife and kids. I want the little house with the white picket fence. I am a great guy. I’ll send you my bio if you want it. I’m descent looking too. Why aren’t women attracted to me? I don’t want to be alone anymore. What am I supposed to do? I want my wedding night to be special. That is why I am waiting and am trying to find women who are also waiting. Is that so bad? I am also a religious guy and attend church but even there the number of potential mates is small. What is my problem you ask? Shyness and disloyalty from women. My first girlfriend betrayed me before my very eyes on our second date. (F**K YOU Brenda H****N.) This was in Jr High. I only had two dates in high school. I didn’t meet my next girlfriend until I was 25. We lasted a whole two weeks. Then she got tired of me and found another guy soon afterwards. It took another two years to get another girl. She too left me for another guy. Another 3 years go by and the same thing occurs. It’s been two more years and I am tring the e-mail romance thing and it occurs again. I wish I knew why women are so fickle. I wish I knew what I am lacking. All I ever get from women is pain and betrayal. Are there loyal women out there? If so, where are they? Does anyone have any _real_ suggestions? Bob Lovell lov…@aa.washington.edu Jr in Aeronautical and Astronautical Engineering University of Washington, Seattle, Wa. | Soc.support.loneliness is a moderated group for providing mutual support | | to those of us who feel alone. No flames, ads, tests or personals please. | | Send mail to ssl-requ…@omega.co.nz to contact the moderators directly. | | The SSL homepage is on the Web at http://www.pacificnet.net/~jkdyson/ssl |
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